scammers and loop holes

[026]

Yell logs cant be seen by normal mods either IIRC.

For what it’s worth, since the privacy update, they can’t be seen by mods at all.

[Marklauten]

FYI seeing programs running is probably only doable by Rapsey himself, and chat isn't logged either or it'd have to be on specific accounts in case you're duping or breaking the game lol. And even then, mods cant see them which is good for player privacy reasons since anyone could be saying private IRL things in public chat at some secluded area or in ::private. Yell logs cant be seen by normal mods either IIRC.

Didn’t read the other posts yet, but this is all accurate

Point is, all I have said exist. Not my fault mods have no ability to enforce the rules. You want to get rid of bias and inconsistancy? Allow mods to pull chat logs. There are no privacy concerns with Mods being allowed to look at trade logs or chat logs. They obviously have the responsibility to keep the information safe. If they can pull all of those logs on my account. Then it can be pulled on everyone's included arsenic. Which is why this case is so obviously corrupt. "He said she said" My ass. The screenshots are there. The logs exist. Corruption at its finest. How to maintain the power to do whatever you want? Keep everything secret! Let your mods have the ability to do their job.

[Fungamer]

FYI seeing programs running is probably only doable by Rapsey himself, and chat isn't logged either or it'd have to be on specific accounts in case you're duping or breaking the game lol. And even then, mods cant see them which is good for player privacy reasons since anyone could be saying private IRL things in public chat at some secluded area or in ::private. Yell logs cant be seen by normal mods either IIRC.

Didn’t read the other posts yet, but this is all accurate

Point is, all I have said exist. Not my fault mods have no ability to enforce the rules. You want to get rid of bias and inconsistancy? Allow mods to pull chat logs. There are no privacy concerns with Mods being allowed to look at trade logs or chat logs. They obviously have the responsibility to keep the information safe. If they can pull all of those logs on my account. Then it can be pulled on everyone's included arsenic. Which is why this case is so obviously corrupt. "He said she said" My ass. The screenshots are there. The logs exist. Corruption at its finest. How to maintain the power to do whatever you want? Keep everything secret! Let your mods have the ability to do their job.

There's a difference between mods seeing what translates to "Raj traded 50b to PKH Takeover"
and
"Fungamer: Hey, I got a new phone and lost ur number"
"Underdog: lol fam np here u go; +31 x xxxxxxxx"

I get what you mean, logs and screenshot/video proof make for an easy resolution in cases. But chat logs are overreaching IMO (although yell logs aren't to me since you broadcast it to the entire server).

Also, don't forget, while you may be AFK while botting there's still people who are actually playing and talking a lot. Sure, CTRL+F exists and it's not hard to put a timestamp on logged messages but still... Lol.
Aside from the ethical concerns I'm not sure how resource heavy this would be for the server. I don't imagine it would take much disk space since it's just text but I can imagine the process of getting there might have some of its own difficulties and just not be worth implementing or in the worst case, having to upgrade hardware to accommodate.

[Marklauten]

Didn’t read the other posts yet, but this is all accurate

Point is, all I have said exist. Not my fault mods have no ability to enforce the rules. You want to get rid of bias and inconsistancy? Allow mods to pull chat logs. There are no privacy concerns with Mods being allowed to look at trade logs or chat logs. They obviously have the responsibility to keep the information safe. If they can pull all of those logs on my account. Then it can be pulled on everyone's included arsenic. Which is why this case is so obviously corrupt. "He said she said" My ass. The screenshots are there. The logs exist. Corruption at its finest. How to maintain the power to do whatever you want? Keep everything secret! Let your mods have the ability to do their job.

There's a difference between mods seeing what translates to "Raj traded 50b to PKH Takeover"
and
"Fungamer: Hey, I got a new phone and lost ur number"
"Underdog: lol fam np here u go; +31 x xxxxxxxx"

I get what you mean, logs and screenshot/video proof make for an easy resolution in cases. But chat logs are overreaching IMO (although yell logs aren't to me since you broadcast it to the entire server).

If you put personal information in chat then it shouldn't be an issue if a mod see's it. Like you are letting the pkhonor see it no? Private messages can get a bit trickier, but is someone is accusing a MOD of scamming (which is a big deal) then someone needs to be able to pull logs to see what actually happened. There is a rank structure for a reason. IE mods can pull other mods chat logs (black mail issues, doxing etc) but if a player is being scammed then a mod should be able to pull logs to solve issue. If a mod is scamming then an Admin should be able to pull logs. Owners can see everything and its very telling that they are saying "its he said vs she said" Okay guys. You can pull a file out of my hard drive that is encrypted but you can't pull your own chat logs to see what arsenic said? Nice

[Thearlygamer]

@Fungamer can we please ignore @Marklauten lol we know he's not truly part of the community just a botter who is mad he isn't allowed to play for botting...

[Fungamer]

If you put personal information in chat then it shouldn't be an issue if a mod see's it. Like you are letting the pkhonor see it no?

The pkhonor, lol
I agree that saying things on yell is something different and it might be nice for mods to see too.
"Public" chat is a different thing. If I'm standing with you on Karamja and no one else is nearby, nobody should know what we said unless I'm for example flaming you and you call a mod invisible to be witness or when you report me with an ::ss

I mean dang, players could be giving others their (hopefully temporarily changed) password in ::private because they're gonna get a service.

Private messages can get a bit trickier, but if someone is accusing a MOD anyone of scamming (which is a big deal) then the person accusing the other needs to be able to provide screenshots and then staff will check their logs to see if the provided proof adds up so they can conclude actually happened.

FTFY.
If more advanced logs are needed to make these conclusions, then we're already dealing with very complex cases that already have the people with these advanced logs on them. Mods are here for the community, yes. But they're not here to endlessly sift through chat logs (that provide less context than you expect) to see if baseless accusation 3959693929 is true or not.

@Fungamer can we please ignore @Marklauten lol we know he's not truly part of the community just a botter who is mad he isn't allowed to play for botting...

Yeah I've said all there is to be said tbf. Just don't want to see this thread turn from "allow staff to use their own judgement more" into "give them all the logs and allow them to invade our privacy".

@Marklauten if you wanna continue this discussion, pm me or we can just agree to disagree and that's that.

[Thearlygamer]

Yeah I've said all there is to be said tbf. Just don't want to see this thread turn from "allow staff to use their own judgement more" into "give them all the logs and allow them to invade our privacy".

@Marklauten if you wanna continue this discussion, pm me or we can just agree to disagree and that's that.

He thinks all staff is looking into everyones lives because he decided to challenge rapsey into prooving he bots and failed, he's a rat to the community that will come and go, I agree we don't want this type of rhetoric to grow, but I think we can all agree and understand the type of person Mark is, and if there's any confusion than @Patel can make a comment and everyone can see the signature for reference

[Raj]

Aside from the ethical concerns I'm not sure how resource heavy this would be for the server. I don't imagine it would take much disk space since it's just text but I can imagine the process of getting there might have some of its own difficulties and just not be worth implementing or in the worst case, having to upgrade hardware to accommodate.

Again agree with everything prior to this. You have to consider how many conversations are simultaneously going on in different areas at the same time. And, how long do we keep those logs? Most logs in the current system seemed to be retained forever. Also clan chats. The multiples of data collected when compared with yell logs would be on the scale of at least 10x imo, if not 30-50x, and while it is just text, it could be a lot of resource usage. You can optimize network calls to the database server with some caching/chunking but the data would just be huge regardless (maybe chunking is the wrong word, but I mean, save the data til it hits a preconfigured size, then push the whole chunk to the DB in one network call). I imagine that's one of the reasons owners don't even have chat logs.

Edit on 11/11: The word I was looking for was buffering

[Rapsey]

I didn't mention refunds because that's always a case by case scenario, but I do think punishments should be handed out to the rats of our community who think it's okay to try and get 1 up on the next guy via scamming or loop holing. Also I don't think the "we won't make a decision based on pitchforkin folks pressing us to do so" isn't a great argument considering it took the communitys input to put that player into the position they're in to begin with. I think the communitys voices should be heard, but this post is specifcally on the whole "staff not getting involved in player made deals" because I feel like common sense should be common amongst staff memebers when finding something to be a scam or not there isn't much grey area if people aren't using loop holes to get their way.

I would like to be able to work that way, but like I said, most of the times there is not enough evidence to decide. Even when someone does provide screenshots of their player-made deal they might only be showing you half of the agreement and leave out anything that doesn't fit their story. So in most of the cases you have to say: sorry, can't help you.

So why is this a problem?

In a system like we have now, when someone gets scammed, they will either be mad at the person who scammed them or at themselves, because there exists a way they could've protected themselves but they didn't bother to use it. It literally forces people to take steps to protect themselves from later disputes and as a result far fewer disputes happen (which is the goal).

In a system like you're proposing, most of the time when someone gets scammed, instead of being mad at themselves or the scammer they turn their anger against the server. The staff team becomes the bad guy for not being able to decide in their favour. They don't even think that it might be their fault for not collecting enough evidence or making a solid agreement. A system like this actually discourages people from taking steps to protect themselves because no matter how badly they handled things, there is still the expectation that they are protected and can run to the staff team if anything goes wrong.

All in all a system like this leads to more incidents of scamming, and more pissed off people who believe staff should've picked their side even when there wasn't enough evidence to do so.

First off. Staff or admins have the ability to see program file while PHhonor is running. Second, chat logs and yells, plus any way of communication is logged. There is a way to tell if someone made an agreement. You are just lazy.

Funny, you state two things as facts as they're both wrong. No one has the ability to see program files (which is completely irrelevant here) and there is no such thing as chat logs. You are just making stuff up (wouldn't be the first time ey).

As for "just being lazy"... There exists a way that players can protect themselves and all it takes is that they throw their agreement in a topic. But they cba. If anything goes wrong then someone else should go spend an hour digging through logs so that I don't have to spend 30 seconds posting a topic. Who exactly is being lazy here?

Even if chat logs did exist, if the argument is that "staff should just grab a shovel, figure out what all my alts and all his alts are, and start digging through everything any of my alts and any of his alts have said in the past month (which would be tens of thousands of chat messages) just so I don't have to write down what our deal is"... I would still say, go to hell. If you want us to spend hours sorting out your mess then the least you can do is make a small post stating what the agreement is. Consider it meeting us halfway. If there is a dispute we'll still have to spend a lot of time and effort to figure out what happened afterwards, but at least we won't have to go on a scavenger hunt just to find out what the deal was in the first place. And by making the small effort to do this you are already greatly reducing the chance that there will be a dispute so it's a win-win for everyone.

EDIT: One final point I'd like to make about this that really baffles me:

In real life, if I say I agree to something and then I change my mind, maybe that makes me a bad person but it doesn't make me a criminal. But on PkHonor you want us to treat anything anyone says as legally binding, as if they wrote it on a nice piece of paper, copied it in triplicate and signed their name under it. This is a game, for crying out loud. Where do you get this idea that the things people say need to be treated even more strictly than they are in real life?

If you want to make a serious, legally binding agreement with someone then make a serious agreement and make the post. If you ask me that option should exist but it should not apply by default to everything that is said in-game.

[Marklauten]

First off. Staff or admins have the ability to see program file while PHhonor is running. Second, chat logs and yells, plus any way of communication is logged. There is a way to tell if someone made an agreement. You are just lazy.

Funny, you state two things as facts as they're both wrong. No one has the ability to see program files (which is completely irrelevant here) and there is no such thing as chat logs. You are just making stuff up (wouldn't be the first time ey).

As for "just being lazy"... There exists a way that players can protect themselves and all it takes is that they throw their agreement in a topic. But they cba. If anything goes wrong then someone else should go spend an hour digging through logs so that I don't have to spend 30 seconds posting a topic. Who exactly is being lazy here?

You are either trying to be technical or outright lying. You have my entire .py file. I'll post it to the forums if you wanna compare it. I didn't send it to you. So be default you either can see it or have access to it in some aspect. You posted it in a different thread to prove me wrong. Which was because I didn't think you had the ability to access files on my computer. I have witnesses who saw the code you pulled. If you can invade my privacy to that extent you can make sure your dogshit mods aren't scamming people too. Figure it out there guy