Doxing

[Empty]

UNEDITED

doxing should actually be against the rules, not a thing you just let go as they've done so far except for one occasion where a pkhonorian got banned (the ban lasted for 1-2 weeks)
Higher ups never seem to be there when stuff like that happens and what can moderators do to it?

exactly, nothing.. good guess..

for what reason do we have staff members when there's no real rules?

EDITED

@026 told me the unedited part was very unclear, so decided to clarify what i really mean, make it so moderator are allowed to hand ingame punishments from rule breaking on PKHonor official discord, as it should've been since they've made that discord.
and also if there was a way to make a whole new discord where you can only get in when you have linked your forum account to discord (i've seen this on other servers, not naming them here obviously, but it is possible) that would be kind of dope, because literally if not everyday atleast weekly i see nazuths' dox going on pkhonor discord, and there's nothing he can do about it, which is kind of f****ing sad as he said in the chatbox below

this would be a good way to make the doxers/rule breakers in general carry their weight as they should, but they do be getting unbanned way too easily.

Ask questions below if there's something unclear for you, i will gladly reply to them

[Nazuths]

I think the main problem is that it is against the rules, but when it happens outside of the official PkHonor platforms, there's nothing Staff can do about it.

Technically someone could dox someone to every single player in Discord PM and not get in trouble, at all. I think that is just as bad as publicly posting it on the Forums.

This is exactly what happened to me, and the people (mitrovic) that do/did it, get away with it with no repercussions, which is sad.

[Empty]

I think the main problem is that it is against the rules, but when it happens outside of the official PkHonor platforms, there's nothing Staff can do about it.

Technically someone could dox someone to every single player in Discord PM and not get in trouble, at all. I think that is just as bad as publicly posting it on the Forums.

This is exactly what happened to me, and the people (mitrovic) that do/did it, get away with it with no repercussions, which is sad.

^^

[Uim elon]

I feel like when you start handing out ingame punishments for out of game behavior, it gets foggy and the line can become quickly blurred.

Because that could honestly be compared to every offense that is committed whether it is Real World Trading, Botting, etc.

I do like the idea of linking discord profiles to forums accounts.

[Church]

I feel like when you start handing out ingame punishments for out of game behavior, it gets foggy and the line can become quickly blurred.

Because that could honestly be compared to every offense that is committed whether it is Real World Trading, Botting, etc.

I do like the idea of linking discord profiles to forums accounts.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion, I am not speaking on behalf of the owners here.

Calling it out of game behavior is a little disingenuous. You cannot disconnect the affect these actions have on people in game just because it didn't necessarily happen in game. As pointed out, we don't punish people for things that happen outside of PkHonor platforms in most cases but the argument is that the negative consequences of these actions is in PkHonor's area and intentionally so.

If some childish person gets ahold of someone elses person info and then starts sending it to all of their friends in their WhatsApp group so the info could be spread elsewhere or they could collectively harass that person in game; why shouldn't that person be punished in some way for their deliberate attempts to hurt someone else.

Slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies in most cases, and I think that's true here. Punishing players for committing an IRL crime against one of our players does not necessarily mean we have to start punishing for a bunch of other IRL things too, and it's nonsensical to think it does.

[Uim elon]

Punishing players for committing an IRL crime against one of our players does not necessarily mean we have to start punishing for a bunch of other IRL things too, and it's nonsensical to think it does.

Administering ingame punishment for in real life crimes is just dumb. Again in my opinion. You’re not a judge, jury, or executioner for in real life situations. And if you guys want to do that, then don’t pick and choose which crimes you wanna enforce. Either you’re gonna do it all the way, or don’t do it at all.

That’s why I say don’t cross the line if you’re not gonna go the same distance for EVERY OFFENSE. You can’t just pick and choose which offenses to punish. It has to be blanket, just like the rules state.

[Rapsey]

It is most definitely against the rules and punishable. Although it's not explicitly mentioned in our rules I believe this falls under rule 10 (No negative and harmful behaviour) which specifically mentions harassment, which this is a form of. That being said we can only moderate our own platforms, not the rest of the world.

Calling it out of game behavior is a little disingenuous. You cannot disconnect the affect these actions have on people in game just because it didn't necessarily happen in game. As pointed out, we don't punish people for things that happen outside of PkHonor platforms in most cases but the argument is that the negative consequences of these actions is in PkHonor's area and intentionally so.

No one is claiming that what happens on other platforms has nothing to do with PkHonor. The limitation is first and foremost a practical one. We cannot moderate everything that happens everywhere. It's not doable and we do not have the necessary access for it either. At best people can send us screenshots, but we have no way of verifying who is behind a username on another service or that the screenshot hasn't been altered (or is taken out of context).

The other side of it is that our jurisdiction has to end somewhere. We only really have the right to enforce our code of conduct on our own platforms, not everywhere else. If two of our players also happen to have a fight on Facebook it's really not our place to step in and apply our rules to that. At the extreme you could even argue that if two PkHonor players have a fight IRL it would somehow be our responsibility to intercede. I don;t think it's right that just because you sign up for a game you are forced to obey that game's code of conduct throughout your entire life. As much as it sucks in these cases, outside of the game only real world laws apply. People are allowed to be dicks to each other to some extent. Just because they play the same game(s) doesn't mean the moderators of those games should take it upon themselves to dispense justice for everything that happens between them.

[Church]

It is most definitely against the rules and punishable. Although it's not explicitly mentioned in our rules I believe this falls under rule 10 (No negative and harmful behaviour) which specifically mentions harassment, which this is a form of. That being said we can only moderate our own platforms, not the rest of the world.

Calling it out of game behavior is a little disingenuous. You cannot disconnect the affect these actions have on people in game just because it didn't necessarily happen in game. As pointed out, we don't punish people for things that happen outside of PkHonor platforms in most cases but the argument is that the negative consequences of these actions is in PkHonor's area and intentionally so.

No one is claiming that what happens on other platforms has nothing to do with PkHonor. The limitation is first and foremost a practical one. We cannot moderate everything that happens everywhere. It's not doable and we do not have the necessary access for it either. At best people can send us screenshots, but we have no way of verifying who is behind a username on another service or that the screenshot hasn't been altered (or is taken out of context).

The other side of it is that our jurisdiction has to end somewhere. We only really have the right to enforce our code of conduct on our own platforms, not everywhere else. If two of our players also happen to have a fight on Facebook it's really not our place to step in and apply our rules to that. At the extreme you could even argue that if two PkHonor players have a fight IRL it would somehow be our responsibility to intercede. I don;t think it's right that just because you sign up for a game you are forced to obey that game's code of conduct throughout your entire life. As much as it sucks in these cases, outside of the game only real world laws apply. People are allowed to be dicks to each other to some extent. Just because they play the same game(s) doesn't mean the moderators of those games should take it upon themselves to dispense justice for everything that happens between them.

Sure, limitations to enforcement aside I don't mean our rules should apply 100% of the time. My argument here is that doxxing a player you know through PkHonor to other PkHonor players, even if on a non PkH platform, is the kind of thing we might want to act on. I think it's similar to RWT. 100% of the planning for RWT could happen on an entirely different website that obviously has nothing to do with PkH but it will affect our game at the last step. People doxxing someone in WhatsApp could lead to serious negative consequences (players quitting as an example) in game even if the info was never repeated in PkH.

I don't know what a proper form of enforcement could even be for that kind of thing could even be so I won't make an arguments for changing it, that's just how I feel about it.

[Uim elon]

It is most definitely against the rules and punishable. Although it's not explicitly mentioned in our rules I believe this falls under rule 10 (No negative and harmful behaviour) which specifically mentions harassment, which this is a form of. That being said we can only moderate our own platforms, not the rest of the world.

Calling it out of game behavior is a little disingenuous. You cannot disconnect the affect these actions have on people in game just because it didn't necessarily happen in game. As pointed out, we don't punish people for things that happen outside of PkHonor platforms in most cases but the argument is that the negative consequences of these actions is in PkHonor's area and intentionally so.

No one is claiming that what happens on other platforms has nothing to do with PkHonor. The limitation is first and foremost a practical one. We cannot moderate everything that happens everywhere. It's not doable and we do not have the necessary access for it either. At best people can send us screenshots, but we have no way of verifying who is behind a username on another service or that the screenshot hasn't been altered (or is taken out of context).

The other side of it is that our jurisdiction has to end somewhere. We only really have the right to enforce our code of conduct on our own platforms, not everywhere else. If two of our players also happen to have a fight on Facebook it's really not our place to step in and apply our rules to that. At the extreme you could even argue that if two PkHonor players have a fight IRL it would somehow be our responsibility to intercede. I don;t think it's right that just because you sign up for a game you are forced to obey that game's code of conduct throughout your entire life. As much as it sucks in these cases, outside of the game only real world laws apply. People are allowed to be dicks to each other to some extent. Just because they play the same game(s) doesn't mean the moderators of those games should take it upon themselves to dispense justice for everything that happens between them.

Sure, limitations to enforcement aside I don't mean our rules should apply 100% of the time. My argument here is that doxxing a player you know through PkHonor to other PkHonor players, even if on a non PkH platform, is the kind of thing we might want to act on. I think it's similar to RWT. 100% of the planning for RWT could happen on an entirely different website that obviously has nothing to do with PkH but it will affect our game at the last step. People doxxing someone in WhatsApp could lead to serious negative consequences (players quitting as an example) in game even if the info was never repeated in PkH.

I don't know what a proper form of enforcement could even be for that kind of thing could even be so I won't make an arguments for changing it, that's just how I feel about it.

And that is where the line is drawn. If the Dox was conducted using PkHonor forums or game, then that gives you guys plenty of room to intervene. But if 2 players from a common server decide to use means of communication outside the game such as Discord, Skype, WhatsApp, etc, they are no longer subject to the protections of the Pkhonor rules because they are choosing to communicate via a 3rd party software.

[Rapsey]

Sure, limitations to enforcement aside I don't mean our rules should apply 100% of the time. My argument here is that doxxing a player you know through PkHonor to other PkHonor players, even if on a non PkH platform, is the kind of thing we might want to act on. I think it's similar to RWT. 100% of the planning for RWT could happen on an entirely different website that obviously has nothing to do with PkH but it will affect our game at the last step. People doxxing someone in WhatsApp could lead to serious negative consequences (players quitting as an example) in game even if the info was never repeated in PkH.

I don't know what a proper form of enforcement could even be for that kind of thing could even be so I won't make an arguments for changing it, that's just how I feel about it.

Although the planning might happen elsewhere, RWT is still something that happens on PkHonor. If if happened completely outside of PkHonor we wouldn't care about it either. You could say the same thing about hacking. The way people get hacked may happen outside of PkHonor (e.g. getting keylogged) but the hack itself happens on PkHonor.

The only argument I can see for this is the human desire to make sure justice is done, no matter the circumstances. I.e. "we can, therefore we should". Beyond that I do not know of any game or other service that extends its justice system to what people are saying to each other on WhatsApp, FB messenger etc. If we're gonna start thinking that way then how do you rationalize not muting people for offensive language when they are flaming each other on WhatsApp?