Player Made Deals

[The underdog]

Unbanning Vinny was the best thing that ever happened to Pkhonor.

Wait, I think I misspelled Juntow.

[Fungamer]

Why say this if there was no deception and fuckery involved?



IMO whether or not Arrs did it isn't even the point anymore. It's obvious that he intentionally deceived him. The point now is whether or not staff is going to enforce the rules that were voted on & were going to go in effect 1,5 yrs ago ( viewtopic.php?f=26&t=83572 ) or the flawed system that allows for fucked up shit like this to happen. I dont care if Arrs gets banned or not but the rule does have to be updated, or this is gonna be a yearly drama where one known player scams another.

[Will be ok2]

Why say this if there was no deception and fuckery involved?



IMO whether or not Arrs did it isn't even the point anymore. It's obvious that he intentionally deceived him. The point now is whether or not staff is going to enforce the rules that were voted on & were going to go in effect 1,5 yrs ago ( viewtopic.php?f=26&t=83572 ) or the flawed system that allows for fucked up shit like this to happen. I dont care if Arrs gets banned or not but the rule does have to be updated, or this is gonna be a yearly drama where one known player scams another.

People have been banned for less, for instance I’ve been banned for allowing people to boost 2 kills on me, while gaining absolutely nothing and having 0 to gain, this guy is a known scammer, toxic, and an ex moderator… I still don’t understand how he is getting away with this constantly. With Ryan making forum threads previously in regards to new rules I was under the impression those rules we voted on were now actual rules…

His character as of recently should also be taken into consideration, he knew exactly what he was doing along with having intentions of scamming vinny, now he crys that people are “grabbing pitch forks again” yet goes on discord and flaunts the fact he got away with scamming..

[Stale fish1]

Just use a middleman, players clearly have no idea what proper proof is.

Agree but then again it's kinda easy to say after the fact. If proof from logs in combination with screenshots is enough to point to this being a scam, it should be dealt with as.... A scam. Are you going to tell a pedestrian that he should've looked out even though they got hit by a drunk driver? Yeah they could've avoided the car but like... That doesn't justify the drunk driving.

I find it a bit unclear what the actual rules surrounding scamming are right now. The official rules state the following:

2) No scamming or luring
You may not trick another player in order to steal their items or cause losses to them by spreading false information about how the game works or abusing game mechanics to orchestrate a deception. This does not include trust-based agreements made between players where someone is expected to keep their word.

Examples of scamming include:

• Luring a player into an unsafe area by telling them it is safe and/or falsely claiming there is something valuable to be found there
• Falsely telling a player they will receive a special reward if they alch a valuable item or press alt-F4 in a dangerous area

While agreements between players can be eligible for refunds if made through our player-made deals system, failing to hold up your end of an agreement is not a punishable offence.

The things Arrsenic is being accused of doing wouldn't be against the rules, if we follow this rule set.

Thing is... About a year and a half ago @Patel and I gave input on the rules and there was a rule discussion thread:

You may not trick or deceive another player in order to steal their items or cause losses to them (ingame statuses, stats, weath, etc.).

Examples of scamming include, but are not limited to:

- Spreading false information about how the game works or abusing game mechanics to orchestrate a player to be deceived and lose money or items.
- Not honoring (the specifics of) an agreement i.e during services or risk fights.*
- Letting someone else log onto your account to do a risk fight without the other party knowing this will happen.
- Luring a player into an unsafe area by telling them it is safe and/or falsely claiming there is something valuable to be found there.
- Falsely telling a player they will receive a special reward if they alch a valuable item or press alt-F4 in a dangerous area.
- Not giving items or money back when having agreed to it being a trust trade or loan


* If (one of the) specifics for a risk fight were not agreed upon beforehand, these things will default to being "allowed" to do. For example, if you and your opponent didn't agree on whether or not it was a death match, both you and your opponent are free to tab out when you feel like it.
In the context of a service, both players are always held to the baseline agreements for services made here


Not all forms of deception are considered scamming. I.e.

- Using an unknown alt account in the wilderness.
- Tricks that don't cause players to lose anything.
- Not splitting loot while PvMing.
- Selling an item at a higher than usual price, while not lying about its rarity or function.

Agreements between players can be eligible for refunds if the staff team is able to recover the lost items and/or money. However, they will not spawn new items into the economy in order to refund you.

While we can punish a player for scamming if they do not hold up their part of the agreement (provided there is clear proof from in-game screenshots and/or videos), we encourage all players to use the Player Made Deal section when engaging in these agreements to ensure things go as smoothly as possible: viewforum.php?f=138


Be sure to ask a staff member if you are unsure your actions will get you in trouble for scamming.

Though there wasn't much input from other users in terms of content, the vast majority voted "yes" for this set of rules to go in effect. And I'm not sure if we're operating under these rules - Ryan said he'd re-word some things and then update it, but the last time our rules were updated were before that thread was even a thing. It was last modified on 2020/11/14 16:10 by Rapsey to be precise.

If the server is operating under these rules (and frankly I thought it was after Ryans final post on the thread & never bothered to check the wiki, nothing against you Ryan but this might've been a huge communication error from the staff-side of things) but didn't have it updated on the wiki yet, Arrsenic would've absolutely been breaking the rules if he did what he is being accused of. Pleading ignorance because the rules were not updated yet would be kind of unreasonable as well considering he was around during that time & if I recall correctly, his incident with Hallow was the whole reason why this push for a rule change started to begin with.

The only thing Vinny would not be entitled to is a refund directly from an admin. However these rules would allow staff to punish or threaten with punishment if Arrsenic didn't pay up & we are operating under the "new" ruleset. Going forward, this ruleset should go onto the wiki to avoid these kinds of incidents from happening over and over again, since this isn't the first (alleged) scam case that has happened in the past year or so. In fact some people who absolutely did scam got off scot free while this updated rule should've already been in effect.

This sums it up right here.

L&A please.

[Nazuths]

Support for adding a new 'Middleman' rank to the game, only given out to a set of trusted players. Details to the rank can be discussed later ig.

[Fungamer]

Support for adding a new 'Middleman' rank to the game, only given out to a set of trusted players. Details to the rank can be discussed later ig.

If a middleman scams then he loses rank in the worst case scenario. He'd still not be breaking any rules due to the way the current rules are set up....

[Patel]

I think it might be helpful to add a PMD section into the discord. As @Iron adam pointed out, the PMD section and forums as a whole aren't well known by a large chunk of newer players. Discord is more their lingo these days though, and in my view, covers a larger chunk of the playerbase. It could be visible to staff/helpers and invisible to players, there would just need to be an easy way to log all of the PMDs (either a bot or someone manually copying all of them over to a forum thread or something).

Quoting another relevant portion of what is enforced here @Fungamer, since this is what's written in the PMD section:

Risk fights

Risk fights are a type of player-made deal that cannot be enforced by posting a contract. This is because in order to guarantee the fair progression of the fight a third person needs to be present during the fight. In order to protect yourself from risk fight scamming you should always ask a moderator to act as middleman and referee. While using other players for this role is allowed, this counts as an unprotected player-made deal between you and the middleman. We simply cannot see from the logs if the middleman was impartial in how they judged the fight so we can't sort out disputes after the fact.

Sorry that I'm only noticing this now, but this alone would be good for a potcast @Rapsey

Edit: also, you can type 'free screen recording' on Google and have that record your fights. If you want to see something outside of the rules get handled, you atleast have a chance with a lot of evidence. It sucks that 20 people can witness something and perhaps not have anything done about it, but it also sucks that it's 2023 and not one of those people managed to record it, including the two who knew beforehand that this was not a protected deal.

[Stale fish1]

Last time a moderator was used he scammed as well .

Oh and iirc it was the same player??

[Nolan]

I'm unaware of how complex the logs are these days, but if they do exist to the extent that I believe they should then it will be obvious what has happened here, assuming that the supporting figures are true and line up with the logs and unbiased testimony. A proper and thorough investigation would be necessary.

I don't believe that the PMD section could ever fully cover situations such as this and could instead be used to turn the story around on the other player as players often do rematches and such.

Back in my day cases like these were always case by case, you work with what you have, and if there isn't enough then that is that. However, that doesn't mean that a warning isn't given when it is obvious that deceitful behavior was used to a player's advantage, and that future cases with related behavior could have harsher consequences. I'm sure there's more logs to go off of these days, so that should help somewhat, but also makes it more tedious to sift through.

IF the accusations were to have any proof backed by logs then it would be a no-brainer that a temporary ban would be placed until restitution is fulfilled along with a warning of a permanent ban if it were to happen in the future.

[Fungamer]

I think it might be helpful to add a PMD section into the discord. As @Iron adam pointed out, the PMD section and forums as a whole aren't well known by a large chunk of newer players. Discord is more their lingo these days though, and in my view, covers a larger chunk of the playerbase. It could be visible to staff/helpers and invisible to players, there would just need to be an easy way to log all of the PMDs (either a bot or someone manually copying all of them over to a forum thread or something).

Quoting another relevant portion of what is enforced here @Fungamer, since this is what's written in the PMD section:

Risk fights

Risk fights are a type of player-made deal that cannot be enforced by posting a contract. This is because in order to guarantee the fair progression of the fight a third person needs to be present during the fight. In order to protect yourself from risk fight scamming you should always ask a moderator to act as middleman and referee. While using other players for this role is allowed, this counts as an unprotected player-made deal between you and the middleman. We simply cannot see from the logs if the middleman was impartial in how they judged the fight so we can't sort out disputes after the fact.

Sorry that I'm only noticing this now, but this alone would be good for a potcast @Rapsey

Edit: also, you can type 'free screen recording' on Google and have that record your fights. If you want to see something outside of the rules get handled, you atleast have a chance with a lot of evidence. It sucks that 20 people can witness something and perhaps not have anything done about it, but it also sucks that it's 2023 and not one of those people managed to record it, including the two who knew beforehand that this was not a protected deal.

Good post. I feel like the rule that was made would've overwritten this and would require revisiting the PMD section:

- Not honoring (the specifics of) an agreement i.e during services or risk fights.*

While we can punish a player for scamming if they do not hold up their part of the agreement (provided there is clear proof from in-game screenshots and/or videos), we encourage all players to use the Player Made Deal section when engaging in these agreements to ensure things go as smoothly as possible: viewforum.php?f=138

That's why it's so unclear. Under the currently posted rules, indeed, Arrsenic would not get any punishment. But we had an exact situation like this a year and a half ago which was the reason why we started working on a new rule.

@Church had some valuable input in this, saying that the rule still needs approval from above and that it might've not been given (yet). I feel like it's a communication error if it was denied & we weren't made aware of it since it did pass a poll - Nothing worth having Ryan or Rapseys head for of course, but it's unfortunate. If it hasn't gotten approval yet and is still being discussed or kind of forgotten about, well, that's very unfortunate too obviously but again, nothing really that is worthy of protest against either of them.

If logs, testimonies and the few shitty screenshots there are all align, I'm kinda conflicted on what should be done with Arrsenic.

On one side, we've got a rule that gets made official at a certain time, which could make it seem like unfair that he gets banned for something that wasn't explicitly against the rules at the time.
But on the other side, I feel like we should all take a stance against the bullshittery Arrs is accused of (I hope we can all agree that deceiving\scamming is bad regardless of him doing it or not...) and starting with this case could be a good thing.

IMO the best way to proceed if all of the proof against Arrs aligns would be the following:

• The new rules and guidelines finally get updated, or we get some confirmation on what happened here (approval, no approval, not yet figured out)
• Arrsenic gets a choice to either pay the 1T or get banned.
• Arrsenic gets a warning for scamming.
• We live happily ever after, and maybe Arrsenic can now win that 1T back in a legit risk fight.

Let's be honest, it's not like he'll be ruined somehow if he has to pay that money out. And this would only happen if he was indeed shown to have deceived Vinny. It'd allow for the victim to be reimbursed & for the staff and community to send a clear message that from now on, this shit wont be tolerated anymore.


As for the whole PMD and making a discord bot and all that other stuff - I've said this before (like a year and a half ago) and I'll say it again: Fuck the PMD system.

• No other server uses this system, because it's too complex for simple things. Nobody wants to write a damn contract for something like a risk fight.
• Most PMDs don't get their thread posted. I literally make dozens of unprotected micro-PMDs a day where I could get scammed or the other person could get scammed by me. I'm definitely not the only person who has this happen.
• Too many of the PMDs that are posted are either invalid or require multiple tries to post. This clearly shows that yes, the community in general is indeed too fucking daft to make & comprehend a thread like this. Shocker. 54% of US adults have a literacy level below 6th grade. Go figure.
• No good comes from it. Really. If you're going to scam you're going to convince the other person to not bother (which is easy for the exact reasons posted above) or you're going to act like one of the illiterate idiots. I mean shit, if you don't even care about being banned you'll scam even with a PMD thread lmao.
• I can almost say for certain that the current system has only caused more scams (though not by the letter of the law) and controversies to happen than if we didn't have that system. If only we could see how such a parallel universe would be.

The only purpose a PMD thread serves is telling the staff team "hey, I didn't get hacked-hacked, I was getting a service so if my items are stolen, I gave this person the password to do this service - there's no big password leak or other chicanery going on."

I say get rid of them for all things that aren't services and handle the things that aren't services on a case by case basis guided by.... Guidelines, man. While we may all have our criticism on the current staff team I don't think its fair to think that they're going to mess up the majority of cases. They might mess up a few, but jesus fucking christ people, that's a learning moment for the team or individual.

We were able to trust and fondly look back upon the judgement of 14-15 year old mods in the past. Now our staff members are grown-ups who are definitely also more levelheaded than those 14 year olds from the past. While there was a running joke that PKHonor = North Korea, are we really gonna say that with the old system we had (the basis of) some fucked-up dystopia? C'mon man... That's delusional IMO