scammers and loop holes

[Marklauten]

Yeah I've said all there is to be said tbf. Just don't want to see this thread turn from "allow staff to use their own judgement more" into "give them all the logs and allow them to invade our privacy".

@Marklauten if you wanna continue this discussion, pm me or we can just agree to disagree and that's that.

He thinks all staff is looking into everyones lives because he decided to challenge rapsey into prooving he bots and failed, he's a rat to the community that will come and go, I agree we don't want this type of rhetoric to grow, but I think we can all agree and understand the type of person Mark is, and if there's any confusion than @Patel can make a comment and everyone can see the signature for reference

The signature reference is edited and spliced. They are talking about two different things at two different times. One was talking about add-ons, ask church, we discussed it for a long time before ended up giving up and admitting to botting on Marklauten. This is the toxic shit I'm talking about. Spreading lies and mods support and endorse it. When I report the lies and mistruths then they mock and continue the harassment. Is that the server you want? Fine. Enjoy the toxic server with an owner who doesn't care and mods who recruit each other and are corrupt.

[Thearlygamer]

I would like to be able to work that way, but like I said, most of the times there is not enough evidence to decide. Even when someone does provide screenshots of their player-made deal they might only be showing you half of the agreement and leave out anything that doesn't fit their story. So in most of the cases you have to say: sorry, can't help you.

So why is this a problem?

In a system like we have now, when someone gets scammed, they will either be mad at the person who scammed them or at themselves, because there exists a way they could've protected themselves but they didn't bother to use it. It literally forces people to take steps to protect themselves from later disputes and as a result far fewer disputes happen (which is the goal).

In a system like you're proposing, most of the time when someone gets scammed, instead of being mad at themselves or the scammer they turn their anger against the server. The staff team becomes the bad guy for not being able to decide in their favour. They don't even think that it might be their fault for not collecting enough evidence or making a solid agreement. A system like this actually discourages people from taking steps to protect themselves because no matter how badly they handled things, there is still the expectation that they are protected and can run to the staff team if anything goes wrong.

All in all a system like this leads to more incidents of scamming, and more pissed off people who believe staff should've picked their side even when there wasn't enough evidence to do so.

We can agree to disagree on this topic, but I’ll state my reply on why I don’t agree with this.

It’s been shown multiple times now that if someone is caught obviously scamming or loop holing their way to avoid punishment (same thing as scamming imo) not only will the person scammed be mad at the scammer, but then the community eating up the drama will also blame staff and server for their stance on the do nothing approach when involving player made deals which over time will decay trust and faith for the right thing to be done next time, while also giving scammers the hint that as long as it’s a player made deal and can get away with it then scam all you want for financial gain.

Also I don’t think the lack of evidence would be as big of an issue as you think it may be. You could even announce it’s mandatory to have video evidence from start to finish and have it as a server announcement. I think the old way of thinking players can provide the bare minimum and punch the air when they don’t get their way is out dated, this reminds me of the old argument that we couldn’t release drop rates because players would be mad at staff if they didn’t get the drop in the rate they were told they would. Also having these announcements will make players who don’t come up with enough evidence be let known it was their own fault. We could avoid even accepting screen shots since osrs is so pixelated it’d be easy to edit them.

All in all I think the system needs to be changed and the majority who’ve voted (all though it’s a fraction of the online community) agree it needs a change.

Edit as I’d like to touch a bit more on this

when someone gets scammed, they will either be mad at the person who scammed them or at themselves, because there exists a way they could've protected themselves but they didn't bother to use it.

I think it’s focused more on then finding a way to avoid being scammed and less on the real issue we’ve brought up that once they’ve been scammed, regardless of how it happened, the person who scammed isn’t only not punished, they’re left with the money or items they scammed and get to keep enjoying their days on the server with no serious repercussions and I think that’s what will drive the drama train and we’ll have another multi page thread on how a scammer scammed without being punished

[Patel]

I would like to be able to work that way, but like I said, most of the times there is not enough evidence to decide. Even when someone does provide screenshots of their player-made deal they might only be showing you half of the agreement and leave out anything that doesn't fit their story. So in most of the cases you have to say: sorry, can't help you.

Why not default to a system like our current system (or a new one, just some baseline system) if no extra evidence exists and adapt to the situation when it does? No process in nature works efficiently (on long timescales) without some level of adaptation. I think staff members are generally competent enough to adapt to a little extra information and allowing them to do more than precisely what they're told them makes things better.

In a system like you're proposing, most of the time when someone gets scammed, instead of being mad at themselves or the scammer they turn their anger against the server.

Currently people are mad at the server. People were upset with Arrsenic in the last thread but quite a few are upset with the server (its rules & staff) too. 24 pages and ~half of them are directed at the ruling.

When I report the lies and mistruths then they mock and continue the harassment. Is that the server you want? Fine. Enjoy the toxic server with an owner who doesn't care and mods who recruit each other and are corrupt.

Genuinely, we just don't respect you. If you're not willing to be the butt of a joke, what do you have to offer to the community?
That's all we see you as at this point. You did this to your own reputation

[Ozymandias]

Common sense will tell people if someone scammed

That's a big assumption.

I think Pierrot doesn't consider it a scam because he lacks the common sense to do so
You should see pkhonor as a corporate business nowadays rather than a server. Rules aren't a thing unless you provoke the high command or mess with their cash flow. Perhaps it's because the server keeps declining so they're just milking the last out of it until the server dies? Lol...

But other than that. Even if you make these threads, it won't change the fact that rules are a joke and we have to pretend a moderator *accidently logged onto another account to do a NH fight for someone else and accidently won*

[Raj]

But other than that. Even if you make these threads, it won't change the fact that rules are a joke and we have to pretend a moderator *accidently logged onto another account to do a NH fight for someone else and accidently won*

For the record, I don't think a single person has pretended that yet

[Ozymandias]

But other than that. Even if you make these threads, it won't change the fact that rules are a joke and we have to pretend a moderator *accidently logged onto another account to do a NH fight for someone else and accidently won*

For the record, I don't think a single person has pretended that yet

You got your clown boss Rapsey feigning ignorance though...

[Raj]

You got your clown boss Rapsey feigning ignorance though...

If you define saying "I'm not going to hold someone accountable for something which has been going on for years but I'm willing to discuss changing the system for future cases" as feigning ignorance then sure, I guess

[Rapsey]

First off. Staff or admins have the ability to see program file while PHhonor is running. Second, chat logs and yells, plus any way of communication is logged. There is a way to tell if someone made an agreement. You are just lazy.

You are either trying to be technical or outright lying. You have my entire .py file. I'll post it to the forums if you wanna compare it. I didn't send it to you. So be default you either can see it or have access to it in some aspect. You posted it in a different thread to prove me wrong. Which was because I didn't think you had the ability to access files on my computer. I have witnesses who saw the code you pulled. If you can invade my privacy to that extent you can make sure your dogshit mods aren't scamming people too. Figure it out there guy

"You (a sysadmin specialized in IT security) were able to get my bot file" (ask anyone, this is the one and only time this has ever happened in PkHonor's 13+ year history)
=> Staff or admins have the ability to see any file while PkHonor is running!

Because obviously you are utterly convinced that your computer security is 100% perfect and unbeatable, so there is no way anyone could have breached it to obtain the file some other way in this one-off case... Because obviously, in this day and age, no new security flaws are ever discovered anymore...

"You could get my file"
=> Staff can always know the truth of any situation!

Oh yeah, clearly that follows.

#logic

I'm not trying to be technical. You're trying to be illogical. If you want me to take you seriously then make sure your arguments make sense.

It’s been shown multiple times now that if someone is caught obviously scamming or loop holing their way to avoid punishment (same thing as scamming imo) not only will the person scammed be mad at the scammer, but then the community eating up the drama will also blame staff and server for their stance on the do nothing approach when involving player made deals which over time will decay trust and faith for the right thing to be done next time

It does happen that people blame us for not helping them, but in my experience it happens far less often than it did during the years when we still tried to sort out any player-made deal. Apparently you can never completely stop people from looking for someone to blame even when they chose not to make use of the protection that exists, but it's still huge progress compared to how it was before.

while also giving scammers the hint that as long as it’s a player made deal and can get away with it then scam all you want for financial gain.

* as long as it's an unofficial and unprotected player-made deal

It's also worth noting that your definition of a scammer is much broader than its common meaning. Normally a scam only refers to forms of organised fraud, and you can bet that if someone was going around systematically trying to con players we would try to put a stop to it. What you call a scammer is anyone who doesn't keep their word. By that definition we are all scammers, because I'm sure we have all failed to keep our word at one point or another (and would have found it eerily totalitarian if the police showed up at our door to intercede).

You're playing a casual game of poker and catch your friend peeking at your cards? OMG SCAMMER, CALL THE POLICE!
You make a bet with someone and they refuse to pay up? SUE THAT CRIMINAL!

Seriously WTF. Aside from serious formal agreements (i.e. the system we already have), do you really think it's appropriate to insist on authoritarian interdiction in every situation to ensure everyone acts like angels all the time? We don't even do that in real life, why on earth would we do that in a game...

Also I don’t think the lack of evidence would be as big of an issue as you think it may be. You could even announce it’s mandatory to have video evidence from start to finish and have it as a server announcement.

I'm perfectly willing to accept video evidence for fights instead of having a staff referee, but the deal still needs to be posted beforehand. This is not only a matter of evidence (because again, you can choose which parts of the agreement you include in your video as it suits your interests), but also in large part because both players need to be aware of and acknowledge that they are engaging in a legally binding agreement. The idea that every word you say automatically constitutes a legal contract and staff will police all your interactions to ensure you are nothing but truthful is something I find absolutely dystopian.

I think it’s focused more on then finding a way to avoid being scammed and less on the real issue we’ve brought up that once they’ve been scammed, regardless of how it happened, the person who scammed isn’t only not punished, they’re left with the money or items they scammed and get to keep enjoying their days on the server with no serious repercussions and I think that’s what will drive the drama train and we’ll have another multi page thread on how a scammer scammed without being punished

That might be a necessary (or rather justifiable) evil.

As I see it the comparison is something like this (based on my observations):

System A (the "staff fix everything" system)

Basic assumptions:
20% chance of getting scammed
50% chance that staff can sort it out

500 deals in a given period
100 scam reports
50 of them can be resolved by staff (and that's being very optimistic)
50 scammers get away with it (probably a little less, because some of those unresolved cases will be reports against innocent players)

Bottom line: 10% of deals end with a scammer getting away with it

System B (the "official contracts" system)

Basic assumptions:
80% of people bother to use the system
90% reduction in scams when official contracts are used
50% chance of scamming in unofficial deals (instead of 20%) as they are now known to be unprotected

500 deals in a given period

400 of the deals used the official system (80%)
8 of these resulted in a scam report (2%)
8 of these scam reports were resolved (because everything was clear)

100 of the deals did not use the official system (20%)
50 scam reports (50%), none of which are handled by staff
50 scammers get away (again, probably less due to unfair reports)

Bottom line: same 10% of deals end with a scammer getting away with it BUT if you're not lazy and you bother to use the system it's actually 0%. The choice is yours.

And I hasten to add, I picked these numbers heavily in favor of system A because by my estimation, there are overall far less scammers getting away with it under the current system as there were when we still tried to resolve everything (but often couldn't).

Your argument seems to be that right now there are scammers getting away with it and if we used your system no scammer would ever get away. My point is that even with your system scammers would still get away with it (probably more than they do now) and our current system is actually the one that gives you the option of making sure no scammer could get away with it, if you choose to use it.

Now you're probably thinking: but if you do both, then you get the best of both worlds! Personally I don't think so. If we do both, then the vast majority of people will not bother to use official contracts and the results will be almost identical to system A where contracts do not exist.

tl;dr: the reduction in scamming that results from people engaging in official agreements outweighs the increase in scamming that occurs in the leftover unprotected deals.

Why not default to a system like our current system (or a new one, just some baseline system) if no extra evidence exists and adapt to the situation when it does? No process in nature works efficiently (on long timescales) without some level of adaptation. I think staff members are generally competent enough to adapt to a little extra information and allowing them to do more than precisely what they're told them makes things better.

^

Currently people are mad at the server. People were upset with Arrsenic in the last thread but quite a few are upset with the server (its rules & staff) too. 24 pages and ~half of them are directed at the ruling.

This uproar has nothing to do with the question of "only official deals" vs "try to protect all deals". It's simply a matter of what is illegal under our rules. This was an official deal and that is ultimately what protected it (the money was refunded, remember). If we tried to protect all player-made deals the result would've been the same. The current outcry that it should be illegal and punishable, even though it wasn't illegal, is entirely unrelated to the discussion at hand.

I think Pierrot doesn't consider it a scam because he lacks the common sense to do so
You should see pkhonor as a corporate business nowadays rather than a server. Rules aren't a thing unless you provoke the high command or mess with their cash flow. Perhaps it's because the server keeps declining so they're just milking the last out of it until the server dies? Lol...

But other than that. Even if you make these threads, it won't change the fact that rules are a joke and we have to pretend a moderator *accidently logged onto another account to do a NH fight for someone else and accidently won*

Nonsense. Rules are rules. You want us to punish someone who didn't break any rules because you don't like what he did. That isn't us selectively enforcing the rules, that's you trying to enforce rules that don't exist. That is justice of the mob, which isn't justice at all.

I have no idea where you get this idea that rules only get applied to you if you provoke the high command or mess with our cash flow. Feel free to give me some examples because I can't think of any. Most of the punishments that are handed out do not involve the higher-ups or cash flow whatsoever, and I do not know of any case where someone got punished for messing with those things without breaking any rules.

We have a clear set of rules. If you break them, you get punished. If you don't break them, you don't get punished. It's that simple. If you do something unpopular but legal and the community calls for your head, I would come to your defence as well, no matter how many insulting allegations you have sent my way.

[Fungamer]

It does happen that people blame us for not helping them, but in my experience it happens far less often than it did during the years when we still tried to sort out any player-made deal.

Because staff not interfering when no thread was posted is in the rules now. People who get scammed end up just as frustrated if not more, but they also know they're technically wrong right now under current rules and then they either push for changes like @Thearlygamer (not saying that he got scammed) or they end up saying "lol, fuck this server and its bureaucratic systems" and either quit or shut up about it after they cant be helped and carry on with some bitterness.

Just because people shut up about things doesn't mean they're OK with it. Some shut up because it's a hard task to even convince higher ups for stuff to change (which isn't a bad thing either or else we'd have different rules every week)

why on earth would we do that in a game...

Because games have rules that get enforced. Sure you wont call the police because your friend looked at your cards while playing poker. I think the police analogy is bad because both Poker and PKH are both games and nobody is talking about the police to begin with since breaking the rules of both games usually have little to do with IRL law. But in both PKH, poker or even monopoly the game sure does/should stop for the person who's cheating or doing something against the rules.

80% of people bother to use the system

Oh c'mon Raps. That number is probably more than twice the amount of people who actually use the system and it doesn't really have any potential to grow. There hasn't been a post in the PMD section for a week now.

I made a PMD without posting a thread with @Iron felony (Great gfx service btw).

If we assume I'm the only person who made a PMD the past 7 days without posting a thread (in reality there's far more) and compare that to the people who made a thread the past 7 days then we're only at 50% of people who use the system.

And that's already making the crazy assumption that me and the other guy are the only people who have made some sort of PMD. That number can easily drop to 33% if another person comes out and says they didn't bother with it while engaging in some sort of PMD and will drop to 25% if I decide to get an avatar from Felony.

And that's the past 7 days, where in the meantime a big "scam drama" has happened. You'd think people would post more PMD threads when they engage in PMD's exactly because of that drama and even the owner himself repeating that you need to post a thread to be protected from scams, no?

Sorry to use your own quote against you but regarding the assumption so many people are going to make a thread...

A perfect example that only exists in theory. In reality things are always way more messy.

It really is a nice system and shouldn't be removed. But I think it should adapt and not be the only way for staff to be allowed to intervene in cases.

Yes, we can call players lazy and stupid for not making a thread and honestly, we all are. But you know what those people will do? They'll go to any other server because they're allowed to be lazy and stupid over there.
So yeah, at this point, to me, this dependance on the system sounds like we're adding to the list of things why people should not play PKH rather than the list of why people should choose PKH over another server.

[Ozymandias]

Nonsense. Rules are rules.

@Rapsey
Care to explain to me why Mike muted me for 30 days for yelling "eco reset" while it's not in the rules but refunds Andres his torva on his ironman account? I don't see how the rules are rules after this to be honest.



After something as ridiculous as this I just gave up and didn't care about being at least a little bit of a decent human being on pkhonor. It's still not in the rules if I'm correct but I still got muted anyway.

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