Feedback on the recent updates

[Uim elon]

For the record I have also had people tell me that they like the alching changes. Why? Because now the rare drops are actually cause for celebration again. Before this getting rare drops wasn't that special because you were actually making more money alching all the random junk than you were from the rares. In that regard I also think things were kinda out of balance. I don't think it should be like that.

I find this statement extremely hard to believe because there are very few bosses in game currently that players receive a more value from Alching the junk items dropped as they would on the rare drops they are intending to receive. The only one I can think of would be Demonic Gorillas, and that’s because they only have 1 drop over 1B.

There are very few balanced monsters that drop a good ratio of rares and alchables. Either you go to a boss intending to make no money in search for rare items, or you go to a boss (or smaller npc) expecting to just make money on Alching with no potential for rare drops.

Giving Ironmen another way to obtain Custom whips is a great addition in my book. My only problem comes with the simplicity of the way. I wasn’t really in to the idea of having them come from Raids 1 or 2, and if they were, I would want them to be like 1/800 drop rate each.

What I would have loved to see (and it isn’t too late to implement) would be to instead of letting Ironmen pick the custom they want by sacrificing a custom and 6,000 donator points, make it so that they can reroll on the table. This would still leave room for RNG to play its roll, but also include the money sink that you guys are craving. This will still result in a satisfying feeling of getting “lucky” instead of Ironmen feeling dirty by obtaining it the “easy” way (pay to win way).

Is there any particular reason why you think obtaining custom whips should be sooo much harder for irons than it is for everyone else? Other than "because that's how it's been until now", which I don't find a very compelling argument tbh.

I’m not understanding how you interpreted my comment as saying that getting customs should be harder for irons. I didn’t imply that anywhere in my statement. If it is the math that led you to that conclusion then I’m sorry you’re mistaken.

As for the RNG re-roll, if you ask me that's kinda filthy as a moneymaking practice. I'm not a big fan of such gambling mechanics (just keep donating until you get lucky) and anyway, the goal was to try to reduce the randomness and make it more consistent for all irons.

It wouldn’t be so filthy if you guys introduced a way to use ingame currency for the reroll mechanic. Thinking about it, you make cash worth double the value it was before (by cutting alch and junk store values in half), so introducing a 20B dump for the cash (which was worth 40B pre-update) wouldn’t be such a terrible idea.

And to use the words “reduce the randomness” to describe implementing a guaranteed reward system is not the appropriate way to describe the update.

[Explozionz]

@Rapsey

Thank you for your time in going through all the posts and quoting them and replying to each quote.

1. Custom whips for iron-men.

I am all for the fact of allowing the Whips to be in the donation store in order to allow ironmen to have the option of choosing a whip they want if they get a terrible one to start whip. However, I do feel that the price of them should of been a lot higher than placed. For those that enjoy the game mode, there was a sense of excitement when achieving your first custom whip and sometimes even more exciting when achieving one of the top 3. I honestly do feel that if they are there to stay that the price should be increased to be more of an encouragement for gold sink and donation credit sink. I honestly think if someone wants to have the option of paying to get a whip of their choice then fine they should pay more for it because although yes this might reduce the number of people willing to do this donating, it would also give people something to push towards.

2. Bank spaces.

Your idea of reducing the price I think would be far better than having them at the current prices they are now. Although yes 25-30b may not seem like a lot to those in the end-game section I feel it would be more appealing if the credit price was lower as stated in the range of 2.5k per 50 and increased at 2.5k each 50. I also feel that maybe this should be capped at 10-15k per 50 once achieved as this may push for people to go for the 2,000 instead of just 1400 as stated.

3. Alch price nerfing.

Could we maybe get a chance just like with the ::price command in which people can suggest new alching prices for items in which it would require 2 moderators or 1 admin to agree on the new suggestion to put these in place moving forward now? Although I like the plan of saying putting it back to normal until the end of the year, I feel that it would cause a lot of up roar for those that have already accepted this change and then converting back. I think would just be a waste of time for all. At least with the idea of allowing people to suggest new alch prices in-game we can try and get the economy moving in the direction you're hoping it can move into.

4. Cash & Donation credit sinks.

I am all for having more means and methods of removing cash or donation credits out of the game to allow keeping the economy flowing without it becoming an over-inflated subject maybe we could start looking into new ideas or purposes in which we can make this happen?

[Stale fish1]

Thanks for the clarification @Rapsey really cleared things up for us

[Its flat]

Thank you Rapsey for taking the time to respond to me. However, I hold my opinions and I still do not agree with you on these topics. I don't think there's much else I can say without going in circles.

Heaven forbid they make ironman mode harder. You just enjoy your easy life before and now can't handle nothing that doesn't make the game mode easier.

I hate to say it but I think there is truth in this... Yes OSRS ironman mode I am looking at you. Can't help but wonder what would've happened if we had released our ironman mode with the same difficult moneymaking as OSRS had from the start. Would people have lost their minds like they do now or have said: holy shit, a real challenge!

I will respond to this though, and this is not directed at you Rapsey, but is a general comment. The bolded part from Brant is commonly said by non-irons as a way to provoke irons. If you have skimmed over the complaints from the ironman who has made posts about this, I can see why you might think like this. But this is not the heart of the issue, which you would see if you've taken the time to read people's responses properly. For me (and I think everyone), the issue is that ironman mode was not fully considered in this update. Ironman has suffered unintended consequences as a result of this update. Rapsey said himself that the update wasn't intended as a big nerf to irons and it will be fixed with buffs. This is the issue, the update does not feel like it was well thought out and not up to the standards we are used to.

I don't think anyone is simply just upset because it is a nerf, it's clear that this update did not consider the extent of how ironman would be nerfed. I've always been in support of nerfing ironman, in fact my biggest issue about the whole thing is that irons have been significantly buffed in the late game.

[Thearlygamer]

If that is the case then I vote we make ::wealth on irons based on alch values. It simply makes no sense to calculate ironman wealth using player trading prices.

As for alching rare tier drops, we may actually buff the alch value on those so that irons can return to profitability by alching those duplicates, rather than just alching all the useless junk. It would be better for the yay-factor of getting a rare drop.

I like these ideas tbh

[Uim legolas]

My thoughts on UIM

I guess a lot of you probably already know where I stand on this. The refund box was never meant to be used as makeshift bank space, and frankly I consider the way people have been using it as an abuse of game mechanics that simply needs to be fixed. I do understand that there are a bunch of smaller storage options missing from PkHonor, like STASH units and such. Things like these need to be added, there's no way around it.

I fully understand this point of view. There were 10's of items that could be stored in the refund box as an UIM. Even more if you hold on to event rewards.
Problem is, once you decide to remove the refund box, the UIM have nothing left to store their items (except for the pet list).
This is not only about the stash units you mentioned, because most UIM don't hold on to their clue items.

It's about a storage place for basic items, for example:
- coins/tickets
- cannon/cannonballs
- fire capes/max capes/comp capes
- possibly cw gear?

We really need an alternative for these.

I guess you could argue that until those things are implemented UIM should get a bank that holds 50-100 items as a way of compensation. Personally I am not a fan of that. Nevertheless we are open to considering all options for making UIM more playable.

No point to add a temporary 50-100 items bank, something to store the items mentioned above should be enough to make UIM playable without making it an easy game mode.

[Rapsey]

Would it be unfair to have different alch prices for irons compared to normal accounts?
Not sure if that would be even possible to implement.

Totally possible but I'm not a fan of it. I also don't think it's necessary. There are better ways we can solve this than taking the easy way out and doing separate prices, and anyway, regular accounts also get part of their profits from alchable drops. Doesn't make much sense that irons would make more money from those drops than regular accounts.

I find this statement extremely hard to believe because there are very few bosses in game currently that players receive a more value from Alching the junk items dropped as they would on the rare drops they are intending to receive. The only one I can think of would be Demonic Gorillas, and that’s because they only have 1 drop over 1B.

I was surprised to hear it too. I don't think they actually made more money from alchables but anyway, the contrast is now bigger so I get their point.

There are very few balanced monsters that drop a good ratio of rares and alchables. Either you go to a boss intending to make no money in search for rare items, or you go to a boss (or smaller npc) expecting to just make money on Alching with no potential for rare drops.

That depends on what you call "balanced" I guess. 50/50? I think that would be a poor balance, rare drops should be the majority of the profit. 80/20? 90/10? Idk, but what I do know is that it shouldn't be the same for all bosses. Variety ftw.

I’m not understanding how you interpreted my comment as saying that getting customs should be harder for irons. I didn’t imply that anywhere in my statement. If it is the math that led you to that conclusion then I’m sorry you’re mistaken.

Well, obtaining custom whips on regular accounts is way easier than it is on an iron. Even after the changes it's still harder than on a regular account since you either have to do a ton of elites or get the credits / money together (full price of a custom whip) and then also do a bunch of elites on top of that. But you say you don't like the simplicity of that and instead want it to be a multiple of the regular player cash grind (by having to do several rerolls until you get lucky) or by making it an extremely long raids 1/2 grind with a 1/800 chance. So although you didn't literally say it, apparently you think obtaining a custom whip should be way harder for irons than for regular accounts who can just buy the whip they want.

It wouldn’t be so filthy if you guys introduced a way to use ingame currency for the reroll mechanic. Thinking about it, you make cash worth double the value it was before (by cutting alch and junk store values in half), so introducing a 20B dump for the cash (which was worth 40B pre-update) wouldn’t be such a terrible idea.

What's the difference? 99% of the players are buying it with regular in-game currency, there's just a step in between. You get what you want (being able to buy it for in-game currency) with the added benefit that irons are now doing their part in helping the server pay its bills, whereas before they might as well have not existed as far as funding was concerned.

As for making it double... I'm starting to sound like a broken record here but I'll say it again: it's temporary, it will be buffed again (and has been by now). We aren't trying to nuke ironman profitability forever. Please give it a rest.

And to use the words “reduce the randomness” to describe implementing a guaranteed reward system is not the appropriate way to describe the update.

That's exactly what it is though? Obtaining a custom whip is still a lot of RNG (getting an elite and then getting a custom whip from that elite). Now there's just less randomness than before because you can pay to choose a different whip if you don't like the one you got. It could hardly be a more appropriate way of describing it because enabling you to reduce the randomness is exactly what this update does.

1. Custom whips for iron-men.

I am all for the fact of allowing the Whips to be in the donation store in order to allow ironmen to have the option of choosing a whip they want if they get a terrible one to start whip. However, I do feel that the price of them should of been a lot higher than placed. For those that enjoy the game mode, there was a sense of excitement when achieving your first custom whip and sometimes even more exciting when achieving one of the top 3. I honestly do feel that if they are there to stay that the price should be increased to be more of an encouragement for gold sink and donation credit sink. I honestly think if someone wants to have the option of paying to get a whip of their choice then fine they should pay more for it because although yes this might reduce the number of people willing to do this donating, it would also give people something to push towards.

That's basically the tough question: should custom whips be crazy hard for irons to get (compared to regular accounts)? I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to that. It's just a choice. Maybe it was better as a really long grind, I honestly don't know. Depends on who you ask I guess.

2. Bank spaces.

Your idea of reducing the price I think would be far better than having them at the current prices they are now. Although yes 25-30b may not seem like a lot to those in the end-game section I feel it would be more appealing if the credit price was lower as stated in the range of 2.5k per 50 and increased at 2.5k each 50. I also feel that maybe this should be capped at 10-15k per 50 once achieved as this may push for people to go for the 2,000 instead of just 1400 as stated.

Well, by now this has been put into practice.

3. Alch price nerfing.

Could we maybe get a chance just like with the ::price command in which people can suggest new alching prices for items in which it would require 2 moderators or 1 admin to agree on the new suggestion to put these in place moving forward now? Although I like the plan of saying putting it back to normal until the end of the year, I feel that it would cause a lot of up roar for those that have already accepted this change and then converting back. I think would just be a waste of time for all. At least with the idea of allowing people to suggest new alch prices in-game we can try and get the economy moving in the direction you're hoping it can move into.

I don't think we will let staff members change alch values for now. We have our own tools for analyzing the drop tables of NPC's to determine how much wealth comes from what. For starters we will those to tweak the values. Suggestions are still welcome of course but for now they will happen through the forums, not an in-game command.

I will respond to this though, and this is not directed at you Rapsey, but is a general comment. The bolded part from Brant is commonly said by non-irons as a way to provoke irons. If you have skimmed over the complaints from the ironman who has made posts about this, I can see why you might think like this. But this is not the heart of the issue, which you would see if you've taken the time to read people's responses properly. For me (and I think everyone), the issue is that ironman mode was not fully considered in this update. Ironman has suffered unintended consequences as a result of this update. Rapsey said himself that the update wasn't intended as a big nerf to irons and it will be fixed with buffs. This is the issue, the update does not feel like it was well thought out and not up to the standards we are used to.

I don't think anyone is simply just upset because it is a nerf, it's clear that this update did not consider the extent of how ironman would be nerfed. I've always been in support of nerfing ironman, in fact my biggest issue about the whole thing is that irons have been significantly buffed in the late game.

Yes, I get that. We underestimated how hard irons would be hit by the changes. There are things we didn't think of, for example that some irons would have large stacks of items that they were saving up intending to alch/junk them later.

Though I would like to add: we were well aware that this update wasn't perfect yet. This wasn't meant as a 100% finished rebalance of alch values. Something like that is nearly impossible to do in one go. We knew very well that after the update many things would be out of balance and were intending to fix those one by one relying on player feedback. I believe Mike also made this clear in his original news post. But one thing we definitely underestimated was just how hard people were gonna lose their shit over this, because apparently people treat updates as permanent changes and not incremental steps in a work in progress. What we thought would happen was that people would be more chill and just save up their loot for a week or two instead of alching/junking it instantly, while we tweaked the values of the items they pointed out to us.

My thoughts on UIM

I guess a lot of you probably already know where I stand on this. The refund box was never meant to be used as makeshift bank space, and frankly I consider the way people have been using it as an abuse of game mechanics that simply needs to be fixed. I do understand that there are a bunch of smaller storage options missing from PkHonor, like STASH units and such. Things like these need to be added, there's no way around it.

I fully understand this point of view. There were 10's of items that could be stored in the refund box as an UIM. Even more if you hold on to event rewards.
Problem is, once you decide to remove the refund box, the UIM have nothing left to store their items (except for the pet list).
This is not only about the stash units you mentioned, because most UIM don't hold on to their clue items.

It's about a storage place for basic items, for example:
- coins/tickets
- cannon/cannonballs
- fire capes/max capes/comp capes
- possibly cw gear?

We really need an alternative for these.

I guess you could argue that until those things are implemented UIM should get a bank that holds 50-100 items as a way of compensation. Personally I am not a fan of that. Nevertheless we are open to considering all options for making UIM more playable.

No point to add a temporary 50-100 items bank, something to store the items mentioned above should be enough to make UIM playable without making it an easy game mode.

I think one of the devs would be better suited to comment on this. I don't know exactly how much more work it would be to implement a proper solution than a temporary one.

[Scrap iron]

That depends on what you call "balanced" I guess. 50/50? I think that would be a poor balance, rare drops should be the majority of the profit. 80/20? 90/10? Idk, but what I do know is that it shouldn't be the same for all bosses. Variety ftw.

I'll have to somewhat disagree, because with some bosses the "alching profitability" just doesn't even exist. At the same time I'm not saying it's just horrible either. There's also a problem for Irons, which some stuff with the most profit can't be alched.

For example let's say I do 30-40 Alchemical Hydra. By the end of this task there's a very high chance that it will drop nothing, or some bs light mystic robe. Far to many of those useless drops like that. It doesn't have to make me rich, but at least not completely useless. The rare drop does kind of offset the useless drop side of Hydra though, that's if you're not a Iron. Which also imo isn't 80/20 or 90/10 it's simply 100/0. So you either get a rare or leave with less potions. So I'll break down the problem, for Irons here. This is my Hydra log. I have about 1-300 KC missing from before the kc was logged, but the drops are all correct regardless. So let's say my kc is 1000.



I have 4 Ferocious gloves and Brimestone rings.
Based on ::prices the avg for Ferocious gloves 16B. Iv'e seen some try sell for 20-24B, but let's stick with the avg here. It says they alch on ::prices for 7.5B currently. That's not horrible I could work with that maybe. Then I have 4 Brimestone rings, and ::prices avg 1.5B and alch is 500m currently. Ok coo not horrible for alching stuff so lets total it.

16B x 4 = 64B or 30B alch, 1.5B x 4 = 6B or 2B alch.. So 70B avg and 32B alch. Is that good for 1k kc Hydra? I don't know.
BUT! Focus on only Irons now. 32B alch would be profit from 1,000 Hydra kills. But wait! alch prices are doubled atm right sooo lets redo that math and boom we have 16B for 1,000 hydra kills. But wait! We can't alch Fero gloves...... So for my 1,000 Hydra kills my alch profit with the new alch prices would be 1B. I mean 1 pair fero gloves does have it's use yea. We probably could come up with a price tag for usability of one of the gloves, but not something I want to try at 3am. We also can't alch Nex armors which is another huge profit drop, because Nex is another one of those 100/0. There's more.

Alch price change should have came with changes and fixes for other issues not just by itself. That was a terrible rollout. We don't need to be showered, but pointless or useless drops need to be changed to something else. As Xsquire1 there's very few mobs that are balanced. Bosses like Cerb, and Zulrah are perfect imo. You don't always get a rare drop, but you leave with some stuff that has some use, or that you just want to pick up. Then there's other bosses that either get a no drop, or a drop that you're like ehhhh why? I will continue later though. It's late.

Also Rap I want to say thank you for always taking the time to explain things. You are very good for that.

I don't have a problem with the new whip change. After grinding out 485 Elites, and 41 masters it was kind of a YES!!!! and ehhhh thing, if that makes sense. The main things I wanted was Fort, Chaos, and Soul whips. After all this time I still wont be pleased until I get those drops lol. I have 50k kc of a certain mob in my hunt for them. Was kind of a love hate thing. As far as everyone else to be really honest, I don't give a shit what the next man has or not. That's not important to me on Ironman. I welcome it, and much appreciate it. I'd take a random re-roll or the way it is. Doesn't matter.

To add to what Flat was saying. Simply, if you don't main Iron then your opinion on difficulty of it is pointless.

[Purex666]

all i have to say is bank space should be free.. i dont wanna get into how obv this should be.. and i rather just not say anything..

[Church]

all i have to say is bank space should be free.. i dont wanna get into how obv this should be.. and i rather just not say anything..

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