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Re: Out-of-game Moderation

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:23 pm
by Patel
Ktm drip wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:01 pm
Patel wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:47 pm
Will be ok2 wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 2:10 am Fully agree with both of you boys, Patel would also be a good fit potentially IMO if he was up to it!
Honestly would be more than happy to contribute to this sort of thing. I think someone else being the official community manager is a better idea, I think advisory suits me well. Just need access to information and transparency - the less information I have, the less I can make good inferences on what to do and the less useful I become.
I actually don’t believe there is anybody who would deserve it more then you tbh, you’ve been around the longest, seen every generation of staff member/ player come and go. Think you’re probs the most level headed dude there is I think you’d be a great fit for whatever tbh
My concern is just that I'm not currently able to devote 100% to PkHonor. I'm not really up to date with game updates and probably never will be fully on the same page as someone who engages with the game's content daily. It's easier for me to take my base knowledge of the game and its community history + combine it with my thoughts/philosophies about things in general to give a good idea about how to move forward.

Of course, the only alternative I can think of for actually taking that role is Adam (in terms of who's still around/wants to stay around, though he'd be at the top of the list either way). He's more involved with the current community and knows the game better than I do, not to mention that he already practices this through tailored community events that respond to some level of need in the game.

If y'all would still rather have me, even at ~25-50%, then I'm game. But I would want compensation to go towards anyone doing the harder work of being involved and finding information (then again, I could give it to them myself lol).

Re: Out-of-game Moderation

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:23 pm
by The underdog
Staff manager on this player base is not something I see to be a paid thing.

For pkhonor's income u gotta keep the server running + build/maintain a reserve for unexpected costs. U can't see that part as undeserved pay even though it isn't in the first place.

Anything that's left over from that u could look at bonuses for quality work delivered on development maybe once every 4-6 months.

Too much variation in the available people and nobody will be in the position to change their plans irl over these amounts either. Are you going to monitor whether they aren't slacking?

You could have one person take over all your current duties in exchange for the 'after reserves' remaining money. However they should therefore be a developer in my opinion.

Where is Rapsey in this picture?

Re: Out-of-game Moderation

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:05 pm
by Ktm drip
Patel wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:23 pm
Ktm drip wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:01 pm
Patel wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:47 pm

Honestly would be more than happy to contribute to this sort of thing. I think someone else being the official community manager is a better idea, I think advisory suits me well. Just need access to information and transparency - the less information I have, the less I can make good inferences on what to do and the less useful I become.
I actually don’t believe there is anybody who would deserve it more then you tbh, you’ve been around the longest, seen every generation of staff member/ player come and go. Think you’re probs the most level headed dude there is I think you’d be a great fit for whatever tbh
My concern is just that I'm not currently able to devote 100% to PkHonor. I'm not really up to date with game updates and probably never will be fully on the same page as someone who engages with the game's content daily. It's easier for me to take my base knowledge of the game and its community history + combine it with my thoughts/philosophies about things in general to give a good idea about how to move forward.

Of course, the only alternative I can think of for actually taking that role is Adam (in terms of who's still around/wants to stay around, though he'd be at the top of the list either way). He's more involved with the current community and knows the game better than I do, not to mention that he already practices this through tailored community events that respond to some level of need in the game.

If y'all would still rather have me, even at ~25-50%, then I'm game. But I would want compensation to go towards anyone doing the harder work of being involved and finding information (then again, I could do that myself lol).
You could speak any language and you choose facts I respect it

Re: Out-of-game Moderation

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:30 am
by Monys
Patel wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:23 pm
Ktm drip wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:01 pm
Patel wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:47 pm

Honestly would be more than happy to contribute to this sort of thing. I think someone else being the official community manager is a better idea, I think advisory suits me well. Just need access to information and transparency - the less information I have, the less I can make good inferences on what to do and the less useful I become.
I actually don’t believe there is anybody who would deserve it more then you tbh, you’ve been around the longest, seen every generation of staff member/ player come and go. Think you’re probs the most level headed dude there is I think you’d be a great fit for whatever tbh
My concern is just that I'm not currently able to devote 100% to PkHonor. I'm not really up to date with game updates and probably never will be fully on the same page as someone who engages with the game's content daily. It's easier for me to take my base knowledge of the game and its community history + combine it with my thoughts/philosophies about things in general to give a good idea about how to move forward.

Of course, the only alternative I can think of for actually taking that role is Adam (in terms of who's still around/wants to stay around, though he'd be at the top of the list either way). He's more involved with the current community and knows the game better than I do, not to mention that he already practices this through tailored community events that respond to some level of need in the game.

If y'all would still rather have me, even at ~25-50%, then I'm game. But I would want compensation to go towards anyone doing the harder work of being involved and finding information (then again, I could give it to them myself lol).

I am beyond glad that you said this. I think you are a phenomenal person, intelligent person, know what is going on with the server (mostly?), and see things but from my involvement (albeit in the past years diminishing) you don't typically log in and see the day-to-day, as you said. I think Adam would be the most likely candidate as a community manager(if he wanted). I love having Patel as an advisor, I think he provides the necessary push back that needs to happen and should happen. Adam as a community manager makes complete sense. Whoever as Staff Manager, Jayden or Ryan, I can't speak enough about it but that whole thing is way above my paygrade. Lead Developer is another one, It's always been a voluntarily "job" to develop for the betterment of the server. Thoby would be my ideal candidate as lead but I completely get that he is past it and doing other things. I am sure other devs are in the same boat but as much as I love the other Devs, I don't know if I currently see a lead Developer type role in them as of now. Solely because of their involvement in the game/not being around as long. Again, no shade to other devs, it's just tricky in situations like this to name successors.

@Mike - You have been an absolutely phenomenal owner/dev. I know your big disconnect wasn't always the community involvement but I think you still crushed that too. I am sorry for you and your family, it is never easy. I wish you the best and I do look forward to your return to not feeling so overburden with just everything. That sucks absolute ass.

Re: Out-of-game Moderation

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 2:20 am
by Raj
I have had time to simmer down and think about it and I am leaving my thoughts.

The unfortunate reality of the situation is that the development team is great (although we need a real solution to the review process), the staff team is not doing well, and the community is actually horrible.

I don't really want to put the devs in a bad spot by removing my work, because they're honestly a great team to work with, but the community, and through implication, the staff team, are not doing well, as far as the Discord goes. 3 people make it a constant negativity fest and know nothing will be done about it, which was kind funny when I made the post but seeing it unfold daily now is certainly something. There is 0 spine in a position to do anything on the staff team, all the people willing to voice opinions that weren't in-line with "follow the guidelines and don't moderate out of game unless Discord will wipe our server for not moderating it" all resigned or were removed.

All that said, I'm putting my in-progress work back, but I will continue to let the staff know that they their inaction is very obvious, and I'm probably not going to be doing much new content work until things have improved, besides for the purposes of minimizing headaches by trying to get my stuff feature flagged before Brant's stuff is ready, so it can be merged before the cache update.

Finally, something needs to be done about the staff manager situation. Just promote Jayden and make Ryan an advisor or something. I think that I would much rather see @Patel be staff manager (it doesn't exactly need to be a hands-on position), but otherwise, there is no one else I think that would be a good fit right now. Jayden could basically have gone rogue at any point as an admin, how many more trust periods does he need?

@Mike A note for you below
Spoiler: show
Glad you're around man, and this wasn't the point of the initial post, but since you're open to taking a more distributed approach to review and releases, something needs to get done formally. I am writing it publically because I think that if I don't, things are less likely to happen.

I think the least technically difficult approach is to simply give a rank of "senior dev" to certain devs, which basically just comes with a crash course (in the form of a readme.md) on how to
  • Work with the unstubbed repo (repos, credentials, etc.)
  • Work with the production server (SSH, FTP, etc.)
  • Apply database migrations
  • Connect to databases
  • Set up beta environments
  • Use tooling related to cache updates
  • Run release pipelines
  • (Optional) Work with the forums webserver and development of its hosted webapp(s)
...along with any FAQs that come up during the initial transition period, frequently used troubleshooting steps for any of the systems, or technical details that you know about and I don't. I'm sure Rapsey can also help in creating this document, and it could probably use some documentation from his side of things as well.

Once someone is a senior dev, they should be generally trustworthy enough to not do things that would be considered immoral with the systems they have access to. I feel like people who end up with such a rank generally will know what these things are, assuming they are professionals. All code should need to be reviewed by 2 of these senior devs ideally, but 1 is more practical, and the author of the code shouldn't count.

As for granting the rank, that should either be done by the owners, or optionally by people who currently have it. The latter is more fault tolerant. And if it's the latter, there should be an unwritten rule that it's a 67% vote to grant it. Obviously there should be a mechanism for removing people, probably similar to adding them.

There are other options that involve automated pipelines, I believe Rapsey maybe even started on this a while ago, but I haven't heard about the project in a very long time. While it'd provide a lot of room for trial periods, it's an incomplete solution on its own because what do you do when the pipelines you built break. And why spend time developing something to prevent an issue that in practice never occurs because actually we have professional developers on the team, probably with access to more valuable systems. No one's doing a 3 year xz backdoor job on PkHonor.

Re: Out-of-game Moderation

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:06 am
by Lykos
Y'know the exact stuff being discussed here was brought up many times throughout the years only to get hit with blatant fucking hate rage and clown emojis.
I'm honestly surprised @Raj didn't go full scorched Earth as I would've slurred the forums to no end.

My two cents? Find a way to deal with this stupid clan shit. Demote Ryan to the lowest of low ranks, bro has no passion anymore. And lastly, keep Church as far away and rejected from this community, what a cancer he was.
Pk gts wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 8:30 pm this server is cooked isnt it

Re: Out-of-game Moderation

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:04 pm
by Iron adam
Lykos wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:06 am Y'know the exact stuff being discussed here was brought up many times throughout the years only to get hit with blatant fucking hate rage and clown emojis.
And it will continue until someone at the top makes it clear that this type of stuff is not welcome in the community. The people who act this way continue to do so because they know the punishments are nearly non-existent. There used to be slaps on the wrist handed out, but the last few years has been a ffa.

Re: Out-of-game Moderation

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 6:39 pm
by Lykos
Iron adam wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:04 pm And it will continue until someone at the top makes it clear that this type of stuff is not welcome in the community. The people who act this way continue to do so because they know the punishments are nearly non-existent. There used to be slaps on the wrist handed out, but the last few years has been a ffa.
I hope we can one day reach a resolution this stuff soon. History is repeating itself and the community is reaching a boiling point where something is going to burst ending in either the servers end or a flourishing renaissance.

Re: Out-of-game Moderation

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 11:52 pm
by Wir3d
Lykos wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 6:39 pm
Iron adam wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:04 pm And it will continue until someone at the top makes it clear that this type of stuff is not welcome in the community. The people who act this way continue to do so because they know the punishments are nearly non-existent. There used to be slaps on the wrist handed out, but the last few years has been a ffa.
I hope we can one day reach a resolution this stuff soon. History is repeating itself and the community is reaching a boiling point where something is going to burst ending in either the servers end or a flourishing renaissance.
Image

This... This is the reason all this started. Because Raj believes this shouldn't be allowed in discord and that we can only use discord for helpful discussions and not for anything else. No one flamed him, baited him as everyone thinks they did.. he just didn't like us using "Bestie" and he went mental over it when his "punishments" were overturned by the higher ups.

If there is clear flame\bait going on in discord, sure clean it up and warn\mute the people doing it. But if people are just chatting about normal stuff, why does it bother him so much? Y'all acting like we grabbed our pitchforks and went at him, when its the clear opposite when he abused his "mod" status to punish people unfairly just because he "felt" like doing so.

Y'all blowing this up way too much than it needs to be, Raj ego got hurt, he started playing the victim and people felt sorry for him now. If y'all don't believe me, ask raj to release the dm's he send people to show how he really talks down to people and what names he calls them.

Re: Out-of-game Moderation

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2024 2:56 am
by Lykos
Wir3d wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 11:52 pm This... This is the reason all this started. Because Raj believes this shouldn't be allowed in discord and that we can only use discord for helpful discussions and not for anything else. No one flamed him, baited him as everyone thinks they did.. he just didn't like us using "Bestie" and he went mental over it when his "punishments" were overturned by the higher ups.

If there is clear flame\bait going on in discord, sure clean it up and warn\mute the people doing it. But if people are just chatting about normal stuff, why does it bother him so much? Y'all acting like we grabbed our pitchforks and went at him, when its the clear opposite when he abused his "mod" status to punish people unfairly just because he "felt" like doing so.

Y'all blowing this up way too much than it needs to be, Raj ego got hurt, he started playing the victim and people felt sorry for him now. If y'all don't believe me, ask raj to release the dm's he send people to show how he really talks down to people and what names he calls them.
Na he's not playing victim, tired of you twats pushing the blame and changing narratives. I hope he flamed the fuck out of those immature fucks in dm's.
Act like obnoxious annoying shits, get treated like one as well.

"W-we weren't doing anything wrong or baiting him!!!! uwu"

How fucking old are you again?