PkHonor

Iron adam wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:48 am

Jumping bug wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:34 am There's a player made deals thread precisely for this reason. If you made the conscious decision not to use it, you chose to risk your pixels and waived your right to ask staff to step in and help.

As far as I'm concerned, your loss is from pure negligence. Next time use the appropriate methods to keep your stuff safe.

Stop saying there's nothing to stop scammers from scamming in player made deals. This thread was created for a reason, its not just there for looks. Use it.
viewforum.php?f=138

I don't agree with this. The majority of our players don't use the forums and are completely unaware of these threads and sections. The original intent when we added that section was an added layer of security. It was never meant to completely replace moderation.

Sure in this case, both players involved are active on the forums and know about this section. But I think it sets a bad precedent to give people a free pass unless they posted a thread in this specific section with a specific format.

Rapsey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:52 am We've had this conversation before so I'm sure most of you know where we stand on this but anyway, to summarize:

This isn't a disagreement about whether there should be legal protection against scams. Everyone agrees there should be. The only thing opinions differ on is what should be covered.

Some are of the opinion that absolutely everything should be subject to legal enforcement. There are no limits, there is no structure. Absolutely anything another player says to you is fair game. If they said anything that wasn't true or misled you in any way, and you have a screenshot, then they should be punished.

Others like myself believe that a legal system which forces people to tell the truth at all times or face punishment, not just within well-defined areas but in all their interactions with other players, is deeply disturbing. That's certainly not how we do things in real life, aside from some of the darkest chapters in our history. This is the stuff of Black Mirror episodes.

So instead of an oppressive system where everything you say is forced to be honest, we have a libertarian opt-in system where two people can choose to enter a legally binding agreement. That way we can have our safety without necessarily turning the server into a hellscape where you can report your neighbour for lying to you or breaking their word.

Of course I also think it's a shame when people still choose to enter into informal, unprotected agreements that rely solely on trust and then get scammed. Of course my moral impulse is also to punish the scumbag. But there's a reason I resist the urge to grab my pitchfork, and I hope I was able to lay it out in this post. Because I don't want to live in a world where I have to be honest at all times or else, and I think neither do most of you.

That being said, I do support taking steps to improve the situation. For example by simplifying the current system and bringing it from the forums to the game. I suspect if setting up your risk fight agreement was as simple as clicking through the duel arena interface, most people would start using it.

Rapsey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:52 am We've had this conversation before so I'm sure most of you know where we stand on this but anyway, to summarize:

This isn't a disagreement about whether there should be legal protection against scams. Everyone agrees there should be. The only thing opinions differ on is what should be covered.

Some are of the opinion that absolutely everything should be subject to legal enforcement. There are no limits, there is no structure. Absolutely anything another player says to you is fair game. If they said anything that wasn't true or misled you in any way, and you have a screenshot, then they should be punished.

Others like myself believe that a legal system which forces people to tell the truth at all times or face punishment, not just within well-defined areas but in all their interactions with other players, is deeply disturbing. That's certainly not how we do things in real life, aside from some of the darkest chapters in our history. This is the stuff of Black Mirror episodes.

So instead of an oppressive system where everything you say is forced to be honest, we have a libertarian opt-in system where two people can choose to enter a legally binding agreement. That way we can have our safety without necessarily turning the server into a hellscape where you can report your neighbour for lying to you or breaking their word.

Of course I also think it's a shame when people still choose to enter into informal, unprotected agreements that rely solely on trust and then get scammed. Of course my moral impulse is also to punish the scumbag. But there's a reason I resist the urge to grab my pitchfork, and I hope I was able to lay it out in this post. Because I don't want to live in a world where I have to be honest at all times or else, and I think neither do most of you.

That being said, I do support taking steps to improve the situation. For example by simplifying the current system and bringing it from the forums to the game. I suspect if setting up your risk fight agreement was as simple as clicking through the duel arena interface, most people would start using it.

Rapsey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:52 am We've had this conversation before so I'm sure most of you know where we stand on this but anyway, to summarize:

This isn't a disagreement about whether there should be legal protection against scams. Everyone agrees there should be. The only thing opinions differ on is what should be covered.

Some are of the opinion that absolutely everything should be subject to legal enforcement. There are no limits, there is no structure. Absolutely anything another player says to you is fair game. If they said anything that wasn't true or misled you in any way, and you have a screenshot, then they should be punished.

Others like myself believe that a legal system which forces people to tell the truth at all times or face punishment, not just within well-defined areas but in all their interactions with other players, is deeply disturbing. That's certainly not how we do things in real life, aside from some of the darkest chapters in our history. This is the stuff of Black Mirror episodes.

So instead of an oppressive system where everything you say is forced to be honest, we have a libertarian opt-in system where two people can choose to enter a legally binding agreement. That way we can have our safety without necessarily turning the server into a hellscape where you can report your neighbour for lying to you or breaking their word.

Of course I also think it's a shame when people still choose to enter into informal, unprotected agreements that rely solely on trust and then get scammed. Of course my moral impulse is also to punish the scumbag. But there's a reason I resist the urge to grab my pitchfork, and I hope I was able to lay it out in this post. Because I don't want to live in a world where I have to be honest at all times or else, and I think neither do most of you.

That being said, I do support taking steps to improve the situation. For example by simplifying the current system and bringing it from the forums to the game. I suspect if setting up your risk fight agreement was as simple as clicking through the duel arena interface, most people would start using it.

Arrsenic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:13 am

Spoiler: show

Enron wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:03 am

Rapsey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:52 am We've had this conversation before so I'm sure most of you know where we stand on this but anyway, to summarize:

This isn't a disagreement about whether there should be legal protection against scams. Everyone agrees there should be. The only thing opinions differ on is what should be covered.

Some are of the opinion that absolutely everything should be subject to legal enforcement. There are no limits, there is no structure. Absolutely anything another player says to you is fair game. If they said anything that wasn't true or misled you in any way, and you have a screenshot, then they should be punished.

Others like myself believe that a legal system which forces people to tell the truth at all times or face punishment, not just within well-defined areas but in all their interactions with other players, is deeply disturbing. That's certainly not how we do things in real life, aside from some of the darkest chapters in our history. This is the stuff of Black Mirror episodes.

So instead of an oppressive system where everything you say is forced to be honest, we have a libertarian opt-in system where two people can choose to enter a legally binding agreement. That way we can have our safety without necessarily turning the server into a hellscape where you can report your neighbour for lying to you or breaking their word.

Of course I also think it's a shame when people still choose to enter into informal, unprotected agreements that rely solely on trust and then get scammed. Of course my moral impulse is also to punish the scumbag. But there's a reason I resist the urge to grab my pitchfork, and I hope I was able to lay it out in this post. Because I don't want to live in a world where I have to be honest at all times or else, and I think neither do most of you.

That being said, I do support taking steps to improve the situation. For example by simplifying the current system and bringing it from the forums to the game. I suspect if setting up your risk fight agreement was as simple as clicking through the duel arena interface, most people would start using it.

While I agree with your point of a more lassiez-faire approach, in this particular instance shouldn't a precedent be set? You mention that it's the matter of two individual parties making their own deal but for either you, the admins, or Mike shouldn't there be some form of arbiters in this case and well - if not - then wouldn't it devolve more into anarchy than it does libertarianism? My point is, if action won't be taken I think as the player base it would be in our right to blacklist arrsenic from wildy stake fighting and letting others know that he is a scammer. There should be some bumpers and a framework to an extent because well, why have mods/admins.