PkHonor

Rapsey wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:05 pm

Marklauten wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:55 pm First off. Staff or admins have the ability to see program file while PHhonor is running. Second, chat logs and yells, plus any way of communication is logged. There is a way to tell if someone made an agreement. You are just lazy.

Marklauten wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:15 am You are either trying to be technical or outright lying. You have my entire .py file. I'll post it to the forums if you wanna compare it. I didn't send it to you. So be default you either can see it or have access to it in some aspect. You posted it in a different thread to prove me wrong. Which was because I didn't think you had the ability to access files on my computer. I have witnesses who saw the code you pulled. If you can invade my privacy to that extent you can make sure your dogshit mods aren't scamming people too. Figure it out there guy

"You (a sysadmin specialized in IT security) were able to get my bot file" (ask anyone, this is the one and only time this has ever happened in PkHonor's 13+ year history)
=> Staff or admins have the ability to see any file while PkHonor is running!

Because obviously you are utterly convinced that your computer security is 100% perfect and unbeatable, so there is no way anyone could have breached it to obtain the file some other way in this one-off case... Because obviously, in this day and age, no new security flaws are ever discovered anymore...

"You could get my file"
=> Staff can always know the truth of any situation!

Oh yeah, clearly that follows.

#logic

I'm not trying to be technical. You're trying to be illogical. If you want me to take you seriously then make sure your arguments make sense.

Thearlygamer wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:53 am It’s been shown multiple times now that if someone is caught obviously scamming or loop holing their way to avoid punishment (same thing as scamming imo) not only will the person scammed be mad at the scammer, but then the community eating up the drama will also blame staff and server for their stance on the do nothing approach when involving player made deals which over time will decay trust and faith for the right thing to be done next time

It does happen that people blame us for not helping them, but in my experience it happens far less often than it did during the years when we still tried to sort out any player-made deal. Apparently you can never completely stop people from looking for someone to blame even when they chose not to make use of the protection that exists, but it's still huge progress compared to how it was before.

Thearlygamer wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:53 am while also giving scammers the hint that as long as it’s a player made deal and can get away with it then scam all you want for financial gain.

* as long as it's an unofficial and unprotected player-made deal

It's also worth noting that your definition of a scammer is much broader than its common meaning. Normally a scam only refers to forms of organised fraud, and you can bet that if someone was going around systematically trying to con players we would try to put a stop to it. What you call a scammer is anyone who doesn't keep their word. By that definition we are all scammers, because I'm sure we have all failed to keep our word at one point or another (and would have found it eerily totalitarian if the police showed up at our door to intercede).

You're playing a casual game of poker and catch your friend peeking at your cards? OMG SCAMMER, CALL THE POLICE!
You make a bet with someone and they refuse to pay up? SUE THAT CRIMINAL!

Seriously WTF. Aside from serious formal agreements (i.e. the system we already have), do you really think it's appropriate to insist on authoritarian interdiction in every situation to ensure everyone acts like angels all the time? We don't even do that in real life, why on earth would we do that in a game...

Thearlygamer wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:53 am Also I don’t think the lack of evidence would be as big of an issue as you think it may be. You could even announce it’s mandatory to have video evidence from start to finish and have it as a server announcement.

I'm perfectly willing to accept video evidence for fights instead of having a staff referee, but the deal still needs to be posted beforehand. This is not only a matter of evidence (because again, you can choose which parts of the agreement you include in your video as it suits your interests), but also in large part because both players need to be aware of and acknowledge that they are engaging in a legally binding agreement. The idea that every word you say automatically constitutes a legal contract and staff will police all your interactions to ensure you are nothing but truthful is something I find absolutely dystopian.

Thearlygamer wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:53 am I think it’s focused more on then finding a way to avoid being scammed and less on the real issue we’ve brought up that once they’ve been scammed, regardless of how it happened, the person who scammed isn’t only not punished, they’re left with the money or items they scammed and get to keep enjoying their days on the server with no serious repercussions and I think that’s what will drive the drama train and we’ll have another multi page thread on how a scammer scammed without being punished

That might be a necessary (or rather justifiable) evil.

As I see it the comparison is something like this (based on my observations):

System A (the "staff fix everything" system)

Basic assumptions:
20% chance of getting scammed
50% chance that staff can sort it out

500 deals in a given period
100 scam reports
50 of them can be resolved by staff (and that's being very optimistic)
50 scammers get away with it (probably a little less, because some of those unresolved cases will be reports against innocent players)

Bottom line: 10% of deals end with a scammer getting away with it

System B (the "official contracts" system)

Basic assumptions:
80% of people bother to use the system
90% reduction in scams when official contracts are used
50% chance of scamming in unofficial deals (instead of 20%) as they are now known to be unprotected

500 deals in a given period

400 of the deals used the official system (80%)
8 of these resulted in a scam report (2%)
8 of these scam reports were resolved (because everything was clear)

100 of the deals did not use the official system (20%)
50 scam reports (50%), none of which are handled by staff
50 scammers get away (again, probably less due to unfair reports)

Bottom line: same 10% of deals end with a scammer getting away with it BUT if you're not lazy and you bother to use the system it's actually 0%. The choice is yours.

And I hasten to add, I picked these numbers heavily in favor of system A because by my estimation, there are overall far less scammers getting away with it under the current system as there were when we still tried to resolve everything (but often couldn't).

Your argument seems to be that right now there are scammers getting away with it and if we used your system no scammer would ever get away. My point is that even with your system scammers would still get away with it (probably more than they do now) and our current system is actually the one that gives you the option of making sure no scammer could get away with it, if you choose to use it.

Now you're probably thinking: but if you do both, then you get the best of both worlds! Personally I don't think so. If we do both, then the vast majority of people will not bother to use official contracts and the results will be almost identical to system A where contracts do not exist.

tl;dr: the reduction in scamming that results from people engaging in official agreements outweighs the increase in scamming that occurs in the leftover unprotected deals.

Patel wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:25 am Why not default to a system like our current system (or a new one, just some baseline system) if no extra evidence exists and adapt to the situation when it does? No process in nature works efficiently (on long timescales) without some level of adaptation. I think staff members are generally competent enough to adapt to a little extra information and allowing them to do more than precisely what they're told them makes things better.

^

Patel wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:25 am Currently people are mad at the server. People were upset with Arrsenic in the last thread but quite a few are upset with the server (its rules & staff) too. 24 pages and ~half of them are directed at the ruling.

This uproar has nothing to do with the question of "only official deals" vs "try to protect all deals". It's simply a matter of what is illegal under our rules. This was an official deal and that is ultimately what protected it (the money was refunded, remember). If we tried to protect all player-made deals the result would've been the same. The current outcry that it should be illegal and punishable, even though it wasn't illegal, is entirely unrelated to the discussion at hand.

Ozymandias wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:40 am I think Pierrot doesn't consider it a scam because he lacks the common sense to do so
You should see pkhonor as a corporate business nowadays rather than a server. Rules aren't a thing unless you provoke the high command or mess with their cash flow. Perhaps it's because the server keeps declining so they're just milking the last out of it until the server dies? Lol...

But other than that. Even if you make these threads, it won't change the fact that rules are a joke and we have to pretend a moderator *accidently logged onto another account to do a NH fight for someone else and accidently won*

Nonsense. Rules are rules. You want us to punish someone who didn't break any rules because you don't like what he did. That isn't us selectively enforcing the rules, that's you trying to enforce rules that don't exist. That is justice of the mob, which isn't justice at all.

I have no idea where you get this idea that rules only get applied to you if you provoke the high command or mess with our cash flow. Feel free to give me some examples because I can't think of any. Most of the punishments that are handed out do not involve the higher-ups or cash flow whatsoever, and I do not know of any case where someone got punished for messing with those things without breaking any rules.

We have a clear set of rules. If you break them, you get punished. If you don't break them, you don't get punished. It's that simple. If you do something unpopular but legal and the community calls for your head, I would come to your defence as well, no matter how many insulting allegations you have sent my way.

Thearlygamer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:47 pm Ah the ol let’s not reply and hope people move on approach.

Will be ok2 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:44 pm

Thearlygamer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:47 pm Ah the ol let’s not reply and hope people move on approach.

Did something happen recently?? Don’t remember….

Honestly tho, such a massive deal and everything was moving in a direction with at the minimum rules being changed and fixed for the better. Now it’s just forgotten about because no real punishments were handed out. Sad to see.

Thearlygamer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:14 pm

Will be ok2 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:44 pm

Thearlygamer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:47 pm Ah the ol let’s not reply and hope people move on approach.

Did something happen recently?? Don’t remember….

Honestly tho, such a massive deal and everything was moving in a direction with at the minimum rules being changed and fixed for the better. Now it’s just forgotten about because no real punishments were handed out. Sad to see.

I thought this would have helped a change for the better, but i guess not

026 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:30 pm

Thearlygamer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:14 pm

Will be ok2 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:44 pm

Did something happen recently?? Don’t remember….

Honestly tho, such a massive deal and everything was moving in a direction with at the minimum rules being changed and fixed for the better. Now it’s just forgotten about because no real punishments were handed out. Sad to see.

I thought this would have helped a change for the better, but i guess not

Pretty sure they’re doing enough behind the scenes, no need to jump to conclusions.

Wir3d wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:31 amL & A.

Wir3d wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:31 amL & A.

Ozymandias wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:34 pm

Rapsey wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:05 pm Nonsense. Rules are rules.

@Rapsey
Care to explain to me why Mike muted me for 30 days for yelling "eco reset" while it's not in the rules but refunds Andres his torva on his ironman account? I don't see how the rules are rules after this to be honest.



After something as ridiculous as this I just gave up and didn't care about being at least a little bit of a decent human being on pkhonor. It's still not in the rules if I'm correct but I still got muted anyway.

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