PkHonor

Posted: **Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:08 pm**

Dismayed wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 4:02 pm
Wir3d wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:22 pm
Markymark wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 6:45 pm im not sure if he is or isnt, Im not in his clan, Im not apart of the dev team, and most importantly, I and you are not him, which is why we always have someone like Mike review the code that was added or altered. Only was we can keep an unbiased way of updates from coming in the game, is to keep someone that keeps the game and the community separate, like Mike does. As far as me reporting the bug, I didnt know about it until a few months ago. And when I discovered it, I did raise awareness, and though it wasnt a proper post under glitches, I have made jokes and informed people about the glitch. When a t bow spawn happens, or dupe occurs, I would hope you dont need to wait for a report post to start doing something about it.
Not sure if you are understanding this or not, Mike reviews all code and updates before he releases them on the server. There are always going to be bugs\glitches happening with new updates, but that's why they release on test server beforehand to find any error in code and people are rewarded for their time and effort. Even then, there is going to be something that gets overlooked. If you knew about this for months, why not post an official report? If it is a bug\glitch, why do you think it wasnt a proper post under glitches? Is it because you use it to in every raid or that you just don't care to report and rather say " I told others about it and they should fix it ". Ultimately, that's why we a bug\ glitch reporting section, for that exact reason. So devs+ can review reports and see what they need to fix rather than "i told u".
This^... @Markymark -- As a good friend of yours, I have to ask that you please try to give logical and reasonable responses, everything I've read suggest you are adding so much emotional appeal to your post insisting that everyone is turning on Mike.

I'd love to see you give a logical response as to why you disagree with this, other than saying we are trying to strip Mike's pride and joy from him, that's all I ask.

The server may progress faster, yes, but at what cost. Once we strip him of his pride and joy, as this is all it is to him, to make the game appealing to all of us, even does so in his times of need. Of course I put in emotion for Mike because it is an emotional thing to see. Lets say he sees we do better than without him, and he loses interest, and gives the server to nazuths, lets just pretend. Updates would come in, new stuff added, maybe new areas, items, npcs, and then...Bugs happen. Bugs that have caused 1 code to taint or override another code that has nothing to do with the code that was being worked on, and now we need Mike. Mike now doesnt have the same passion to help the server, although I know he would the first few weeks, if not months. And when Mike finally moves on, and we have a buggy game we dont know how to fix, where is Mike now? Just because Raj knows the same, if not more than Mike, doesn't mean Mike wont have an answer for the solution that Raj cant find.

Thats why its important to tread lightly, maybe see how Mike himself feels about all of this before making it public to the community, etc. Like it all sounds like an action plan and all, but in the end, I think we have yet to see pkhonors true downfall if following through with this. Mike is a direct person linked to this game, it wont be the same without him, even if its only just a few codes that go unseen by him. Best thing we can do is wait until Mike is ready, and better at heart is all.

What devs could be doing currently is listing stuff on their notes of things that need work, and follow through by pming Mike for access for that code, so you can update it, and let him know what youre doing. Just because Mike isnt here right now, doesnt mean theres nothing to be done. If you want to be the lead dev, you have to be prepared, like a manager of a store. Being a manager means nothing, unless you manage what youre the manager of. But from what ive seen theres more arguments than attempts of fixes or patches, or even suggestions being considered. From all that said, thats why I say right now is not the best time to overstep Mike.

Posted: **Wed Jan 03, 2024 8:02 pm**

Markymark wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:08 pm Once we strip him of his pride and joy, as this is all it is to him, to make the game appealing to all of us, even does so in his times of need.

Markymark wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:08 pm Lets say he sees we do better than without him, and he loses interest, and gives the server to nazuths, lets just pretend.

Markymark wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:08 pm And when Mike finally moves on, and we have a buggy game we dont know how to fix, where is Mike now? Just because Raj knows the same, if not more than Mike, doesn't mean Mike wont have an answer for the solution that Raj cant find.

Again, not a single person is suggesting this. Everyone wants Mike and Rapsey to stay the leaders and owners of PkHonor.

Markymark wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:08 pm What devs could be doing currently is listing stuff on their notes of things that need work, and follow through by pming Mike for access for that code, so you can update it, and let him know what youre doing. Just because Mike isnt here right now, doesnt mean theres nothing to be done.

I think you incredibly underestimate the amount of work that has been done by the developers. This is exactly what they have been doing. We have updates that have been sitting ready for review/implementation for a very long time.

The fact of the matter is this: the current length of the development cycle is too long. We will continue to lose players old and new. If you look at the numbers, it is very clear that player count is directly correlated to the frequency and quality of updates. Look at 2019/2020. Development stalled and the player base dropped significantly. Then Thoby and Mike (Andres too?) started to pump out high quality updates like there was no tomorrow, including Hydra, Slayer Expansion, ToB, Vorkath, Skotizo/Catacombs, Collection Log, Lithkren Dungeon, Basilisk Knights, and an incredible amount of QoL updates. This, combined with the upgraded event system, led to our player base surging back to expected levels. Now that development has stalled again, we are seeing the player-base drop well below 100 players on a daily basis.

We all want to see PkHonor to continue to thrive. We need to find a system that allows the developers to consistently push out content without sacrificing the mental health of anyone. I don't think that doing nothing is a good option.

Posted: **Thu Jan 04, 2024 6:26 am**

Markymark wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:08 pm Updates would come in, new stuff added, maybe new areas, items, npcs, and then...Bugs happen. Bugs that have caused 1 code to taint or override another code that has nothing to do with the code that was being worked on, and now we need Mike. Mike now doesnt have the same passion to help the server, although I know he would the first few weeks, if not months. And when Mike finally moves on, and we have a buggy game we dont know how to fix, where is Mike now? Just because Raj knows the same, if not more than Mike, doesn't mean Mike wont have an answer for the solution that Raj cant find.

Brother, no one is suggesting Mike leave the team. I regularly PM him with questions while developing, about where things are in the source, things I don't have access to, what the conventions are for certain things, bugs I'm fighting with, and so on. That doesn't mean he needs to read every line of code, from every update, and be available for the update itself, assuming we've run sufficient betas for it and it's a risk-free deployment (such as the combat achievements, which were beta'd twice, don't add tradeable items to the game, and were finished mid-November).

And acting like we can't read or understand each other's code is insane. The only issues we've had with code comprehension has been difficulty for Mike reviewing my work because I use a more functional approach than he's used to in some code models, passing lambda functions as parameters to be used as callbacks for simple logical differentiation following engine computations, and a more OO approach than he's used to in other code models where we need highly differentiated behavior from specific objects, like individual charged items or individual combat achievements or individual instances. So if there is an actual issue in code comprehension, it's the inverse of what you're saying, where I think the reviewer right now sometimes doesn't understand what he's seeing due to having learned an older, less abstract, and more explicit style of Java.

Spoiler: show

With that being said, the whole idea that anyone's eyes or presence alone prevent bugs is crazy. I've watched countless bugs slip through the cracks in the review system, and I've fixed many of them. This is MMORPG development, there's going to be bugs. If you think the client right now isn't filled with bugs Mike doesn't know how to fix, I have some news for you. Obviously it helps having someone with that experience, but no one prevents all bugs from entering the game, as evidenced by all the updates he's reviewed containing bugs. Speculating that his specific presence and eyes prevent them is an absurd misunderstanding of software development.

Posted: **Thu Jan 04, 2024 5:57 pm**

Sounds like you guys are trying too hard as if youve chat about it behind close doors for sure to where you think you have it figured out. In the end, all you keep forgetting this isnt your server, and not your call to make on what Mike does. If he feels something should be done, or changed, he would have told you already if you talk to him "regularly". Idk tho, no matter how much I say to wait on the owner of the server to make up his mind, you guys seem to press that much harder for some reason, almost even going as far as to almost bait, to try explain something and try having others that have no understanding of you guys to help manipulate a decision that Mike probably doesnt want to do, because you guys are trying too hard to "Win" over the community, when you should be winning over Mike. Because if Mike really wanted this, you guys would have more scripts of the game...but you dont. and Im sure he would like to keep it that way. But I understand where youre coming from.

Not to mention Nazuths started to take these posts as targets against yall, like you are doing, Kind of like children, To where I had to pm him to assure him hes a good coder, as if someone is calling him less? To where he starts talking crap about the people that actually tell him hes appreciated, which definately had the posibility of tainting code to help out his clan, if not take bribes. Ive seen plenty in this game, I wouldnt put favoritism aside especially if we are starting to have regular players of the game, and owners on clans, be lead developers of the game. Theres plenty of videos on corrupt admins and owners, should we risk turning pkhonor into that type of style?

But knowing how you talk and take things, you probably consider it targettint you, when it all reality its just views I see as to why you guys shouldnt have anymore than part of the code. As it seems to be as easy as you said, just PM Mike, and wait for his response. Dont matter if it takes forever, if you saw your parents dying before your eyes, or seen and feel your health decreasung day by day, youd probably understand why Nike is not here right now. And if you had the smallest heart, you would wait for him to come back and announce hes willing to give you guys more access. Until then, I dont know why you guys press so hard.

Posted: **Thu Jan 04, 2024 6:20 pm**

Like previously stated, I don't think any of the developers want to do a hostile take-over of the server. They've all said they would just like a different type of review if possible (multiple devs reviewing / etc). I would say that all of the developers have fought long and hard to get their positions by being very passionate players of the game. They are doing this because they want to and not because they are required to by any means. If the code is reviewed by multiple developers and signed off, it mitigates a lot of risk. There will never be a way to mitigate the risk even with Mike reviewing everything. It is simply not possible.

I completely understand that Mike has viewed this as a passion project for a long time and it definitely is. I (we all) have very fond memories of PkHonor in the decade+ some of us have been here. I don't think the point of this post is to take any of that recognition away from Mike or Rapsey. They are both incredible people and have been absolutely crushing it for years.

From a purely logical and clear-mind approach, it makes complete sense to give the developers a little more power in terms of reviewing each others code. Something that if Mike/Rapsey want to do, they can have a meeting with their developers.

Regardless, I love this server and the people. All of the developers have done a tremendous job over their times enhancing the server. Much love to all of you scumbags K3

Posted: **Thu Jan 04, 2024 6:26 pm**

Markymark wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 5:57 pm Sounds like you guys are trying too hard as if youve chat about it behind close doors for sure to where you think you have it figured out. In the end, all you keep forgetting this isnt your server, and not your call to make on what Mike does. If he feels something should be done, or changed, he would have told you already if you talk to him "regularly". Idk tho, no matter how much I say to wait on the owner of the server to make up his mind, you guys seem to press that much harder for some reason, almost even going as far as to almost bait, to try explain something and try having others that have no understanding of you guys to help manipulate a decision that Mike probably doesnt want to do, because you guys are trying too hard to "Win" over the community, when you should be winning over Mike. Because if Mike really wanted this, you guys would have more scripts of the game...but you dont. and Im sure he would like to keep it that way. But I understand where youre coming from.

Not to mention Nazuths started to take these posts as targets against yall, like you are doing, Kind of like children, To where I had to pm him to assure him hes a good coder, as if someone is calling him less? To where he starts talking crap about the people that actually tell him hes appreciated, which definately had the posibility of tainting code to help out his clan, if not take bribes. Ive seen plenty in this game, I wouldnt put favoritism aside especially if we are starting to have regular players of the game, and owners on clans, be lead developers of the game. Theres plenty of videos on corrupt admins and owners, should we risk turning pkhonor into that type of style?

But knowing how you talk and take things, you probably consider it targettint you, when it all reality its just views I see as to why you guys shouldnt have anymore than part of the code. As it seems to be as easy as you said, just PM Mike, and wait for his response. Dont matter if it takes forever, if you saw your parents dying before your eyes, or seen and feel your health decreasung day by day, youd probably understand why Nike is not here right now. And if you had the smallest heart, you would wait for him to come back and announce hes willing to give you guys more access. Until then, I dont know why you guys press so hard.

Firstly, apologies that this won’t be very in depth as I’m on my phone @ work.

It amazes me how often you contradict yourself without realizing. You continuously allege that everyone who has commented is baiting, that they’re biased and have no heart, as you follow up with baiting, bias and down talking those who commit their time to this game.

You speak on Mikes behalf as if you are his inner soul and know his exact emotions and thoughts inside and out. You continue to argue against current and ex staff, developers, and veterans of this game.

I don’t know what you’re speaking on about @Nazuths feeling targeted in a negative way from this post as every comment in regards to him in this thread is praising him for his hard work and dedication.

You continue to speak on bugs being exploited and never fixed, these bugs that are in the game made it past your “safety net” of Mike reviewing the code, and had it not been for the on going bottle neck of the current dev’s not being able to make this live updates the GREAT MAJORITY of the current bugs including your OLM bug would be patched.

This is not some type of resistance twords Mike as you’re making it out to be, it’s not a witch hunt to get him to resign and hand the server over to someone else, this is very clearly a request to change the current development bottle neck.

The server has a banner, that’s it’s a community driven server, now on this thread the community has spoken and not including what you’ve been spewing about emotions and pride yada yada it’s very clear that we just want change to this. Let’s keep that banner honest and move forward in a more productive way.

Edit: I also haven’t spoken to ANYONE who commented on this prior to me making this thread, i had no discussion with anyone this pertains to in regards to this proposal prior to this thread.

The accusations are also getting out of hand, originally claiming that dev’s purposefully leaves bugs in their codes and now that we’re conspiring for some coup..

Posted: **Fri Jan 05, 2024 1:33 am**

Yeah I can't even come up with clever joke replies on this thread anymore for staff to instantly delete. Such a hopeless conversation that is going nowhere

Nvm, just poll it and get it over with

Posted: **Fri Jan 05, 2024 2:13 am**

Andres wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:36 pm Hi, I am currently not actively developing for this project but I’d like to share my opinion about this subject:

It's crucial that the Lead developer (Mike) thoroughly reviews all aspects to ensure a smooth gaming experience.
Nobody wants to deal with rollbacks caused by exploits, bugs, or dupes days later—it's detrimental for both developers and players.

In many IT projects, a lead programmer, with extensive experience in the codebase, plays a pivotal role in maintaining quality over quantity, despite potential longer wait times.

I am fully aware that this mindset causes frustration for the community and/or developers but we have to respect the workflow.

As long Mike and/or Rapsey don't feel like changing this it is something we should respect.

I appreciate this, but based on what Raj is saying, it seems like the development window is 4 months long and the amount of progress from new devs is ever-increasing. I think 8 months of development followed by 4 months of sprint might be too much pressure on Mike and too much frustration for developers - especially as the "new" devs become more and more experienced helping out with the game.

This is not about respect, it's a discussion of whether the current state of affairs is just a comfortable status quo or the benefits of opening up development freedom even *some amount* are worth it. We can question Mike and Rapsey respectfully, I think this thread is just lacking their input/final say. I don't think a majority of posts on this thread are disrespectful.

We're at a unique period in Pkhonor where we seem to have more development manpower than we did 5-10 years ago, so it makes sense to ask new questions. Plus - I don't think Mike and Rapsey (or any human being for that matter) will spontaneously jump at the chance to make changes the moment they're possible. They might not even consider it necessary unless an outside perspective brings it to their attention. So I do think this dialogue is warranted.

Posted: **Fri Jan 05, 2024 2:25 am**

This thread has started to devolve into something very unproductive. It should be locked at this point, but I know people tend to like threads like this.

So instead let's just try to get things back at a reasonable place while the thread continues.

Posted: **Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:52 am**

Patel wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 2:13 am I appreciate this, but based on what Raj is saying, it seems like the development window is 4 months long and the amount of progress from new devs is ever-increasing. I think 8 months of development followed by 4 months of sprint might be too much pressure on Mike and too much frustration for developers - especially as the "new" devs become more and more experienced helping out with the game.

This is both true and untrue. That is the development schedule (on average), though it’s not so set in stone. The main thing to understand is it’s extremely inconsistent, with 2 month bursts of activity in terms of code review, and then 4 months of downtime. But that could be 1 and 5, or 4 and 2. It is consistently inconsistent. Right now, admittedly, there’s no content waiting besides the combat achievements, but there have been times since I became a trial dev where there was no review happening with multiple releases ready to go. They’re not unrelated; not having adequate review processes is extremely demotivating for me at least, and I’m not inclined to mentally invest in other work until I have actually wrapped up the post-release bug fixing for the combat achievements and the engine systems I wrote to make them easier.

Rest of what you said checks out. Definitely not a shot at Mike or Rapsey, I personally completely understand we all have commitments. It’s as I said in my first post on this thread: it’s simply painful to watch things move so slowly when I am 100% sure I could facilitate getting them done sooner, at a high level (and Mike and Rapsey definitely know that), at least in some way.

PkHonor

Dear Mike.

Re: Dear Mike.

Re: Dear Mike.

Re: Dear Mike.

Re: Dear Mike.

Re: Dear Mike.

Re: Dear Mike.

Re: Dear Mike.

Re: Dear Mike.

Re: Dear Mike.

Re: Dear Mike.