PkHonor

Also, if AHK and remapping keys have been questioned so much, then they absolutely be in the ::rules. They are not macros or bots or autoclickers. They are hotkeys. If this server doesn't allow hotkeys it needs in be in the ::rules. Quoting a discussion from who know's IMO is not any type of official stance. (Since offical stances and personal opinions often get confused.

Church wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:52 pm @Patel said he doesn't think that misclicks are a part of this but I think it is, we do not design are rules to level the playing field from skill indifferences, we design them to have a baseline level of fairness. Press a single button takes far less effort, skill, coordination, time, etc etc than moving the mouse to a specific location. Some skills grinds are built off these mistakes (see: construction) and how well you can avoid them.

Essentially, "git gud", which I agree with. It's not our problem - it's the player's problem. We don't design the rule of 1:1 to benefit/circumvent getting good, but the fact remains that 1:1 is an equalizer. Just a curious thing that I noticed while typing, that's all.

Church wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:52 pmIf we were to allow it we would have to change our bot check procedures in some way, else people would just say "oh I'm using a 1:1, but I was looking at the other screen for the few minutes you did a bot check on me."

Why would we need to change it? If you're 'playing' by not even paying attention, 1:1 can't be an excuse for missing a bot check. You're still performing in game while failing a bot check; you are effectively botting.

The condition you check for is whether or not someone is present while performing inputs in the game. If they're not, that's a sufficient condition to get jailed/banned. We don't need to change that, 1:1 or not. You don't have to say "you were botting for sure," you say "you weren't responding and you were still performing individual actions ingame - you are therefore banned for botting". That's precisely what has been done for as long as I can remember.

Rapsey wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:37 pm Where I disagree is your interpretation of what constitute an action. "Move my mouse to the right location" is not a single action IMO, it's a complex action that cannot be equated with a simple button press. I'm sure we can all agree that in something like a first person shooter, "find what looks like the head of another player and put my mouse over it" is just a plain old aimbot. You can argue all you like that you're remapping a "single action" in a way that's more convenient for you, it's cheating all the same.

In the context of the original video/post, I completely agree. He shouldn't be reading in data and automating where the mouse clicks can go. A single button shouldn't do more than move the mouse either.
Even if all of the trees are in the same spots, there shouldn't be a single key that allows him to start chopping again (based on where the trees are). If any coordinate hard-coding occurs, it should only be for the literal position on your monitor, and it should be static. Plain coordinate remapping for moving to the tree's position on your monitor and *then* having to click separately is not the same as "detect an object and then move to it", since the locations on your screen won't change as long as you don't rotate your camera. In that sense, hardcoding mouse coordinates seems too simple for the comparison to an aimbot, but only if the mouse coordinates are determined by you independently of somehow reading in game data.

Again, In the context of Marklauten's proposal I agree - there should be no automatic detection of where the tree is or an easy route to the coodinates from the information in the client. That seems like more than one action anyways.

On a related note -
I do subscribe to 1:1 being a mouse movement, but not with a click. That sounds like 1:2. A cursor movement with an ordinary mouse would really be the superposition of many coordinate transformations (since it's not a straight line, and even if it is you're still stopping at a new set of (x,y) that is along the way). A keymapping would quite literally just move it to a new x,y in one step. I still see this as 1:1 because tablets exist (sorry), and I don't know that there is good reason to differentiate. Of course, one could see that it's the same coordinate each time, but so is the case with fletching and native windows mousekeys, which is about as barebones as this process gets.

To clarify, my mouse movements are hard coded. They will happen whether I have PkHonor Open or not. A separate conversation if talking my personal program which does not affect the pk client at all. There is not "program looks for this and then does this" The only time that happens is with the audio file. I could start that add-on and the client, logs, mods, or admins would have no way of knowing. I take 0 data from the client at all. 100% of my actions are hard coded OR taken from my monitor. Not the client itself. My XP drops comes from my monitor information. The Ding is the notification that I have gone afk and I need to look at screen again.

We haven't discussed add-ons like that at all.

Marklauten wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:16 pm Also, if AHK and remapping keys have been questioned so much, then they absolutely be in the ::rules. They are not macros or bots or autoclickers. They are hotkeys. If this server doesn't allow hotkeys it needs in be in the ::rules. Quoting a discussion from who know's IMO is not any type of official stance. (Since offical stances and personal opinions often get confused.

You're getting your answers here, and you asked politely beforehand. Something tells me you already knew that this was unclear, since we don't specifically mention 1:1 but do mention macroing. You didn't do anything wrong, but demanding a solid decision on a rule change right now kind of misses the point. A server with rules that change on a dime doesn't survive 10+ years.

So discussion ensues as a forum is made for. The answer is that this is a grey area - there is an official stance (not allowed, you won't get good reception if you're banned and you try to appeal) and you cannot release a public 3rd party software or addon. However, if you read this entire discussion you see that we recognize 1:1 while you're present is vastly different from earning xp while you're asleep. Rapsey, Raj, heck even me (who is taking an opposing stance) already outlined WHY it's not allowed, but that doesn't mean it needs to be written into the ::rules command after a server update for you to act accordingly.

Marklauten wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:43 pm To clarify, my mouse movements are hard coded. They will happen whether I have PkHonor Open or not. A separate conversation if talking my personal program which does not affect the pk client at all. There is not "program looks for this and then does this" The only time that happens is with the audio file. I could start that add-on and the client, logs, mods, or admins would have no way of knowing. I take 0 data from the client at all. 100% of my actions are hard coded OR taken from my monitor. Not the client itself. My XP drops comes from my monitor information. The Ding is the notification that I have gone afk and I need to look at screen again.

We haven't discussed add-ons like that at all.

That's a lot better IMO. Doesn't change the official stance, nor would it permit a public release of any sort of add on, but principally I think that's ok.
Edit: To be clear, I don't give anything more than personal opinion - any official positions from me are just regurgitations.

Marklauten wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:14 pm Okay, Just to be clear, the following is true in the definition of Server Rules:

1.) ANY 1:1 remap or reassignment of keys are illegal. To include:
a.) Remapping a key to preform the action of any other button or key.
b.) Remapping an action to include mouse movements with any other action or tool OTHER than the mouse.

Basically, you have to have original "factory" settings to play this server. Any modifications, remapping, key assignment, etc, is explicitly illegal and against the rules.

2.) The opinion of admins and owners do include the idea that there is no difference between pressing 'enter' to click vs left mouse button, but there are additional issues bot-checks etc that affect this decision.

Follow up question?

Why is altering my computer against the rules of the server? For example, if I switched some of my graphical settings around I could have a specific advantage over another player, yet that isnt "factory" settings and how the game was supposed to be played? Just because I use a separate key to click doesn't mean I am circumventing the rules of the server. I have to click just like everyone else. This brings me back to the disability aspect. What if I was missing fingers and had to have a custom keyboard to be able to click my mouse (that I cant click cause I'm missing fingers) Am I not allowed to play since that isn't how the Server was designed to play?

Again, part 2 is a discussion.

Simply rebinding one key to another is not against the rules as this could not possibly be called a macro and does not automate anything. We don't put rules on how you can set up your input devices. Some people left click with their mouse, others by tapping a trackpad, some laptop users have keyboard buttons for left/right mouse click, others might press a trackball and someone using VNC might just do it by tapping their phone screen. None of this is a macro, none of it automated anything. It's fine.

Using a piece of software to perform an action is not allowed, even if you trigger it manually.

As for mouse movements specifically, I'm sure you understand the spirit of the rule. If you want your mouse to end up in a specific location it's you who has to put it there, not a line of code. We don't care if you do this with your mouse or joystick or even by installing a Kinect which tracks your hand movements, as long as you're the one doing it.

Marklauten wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:16 pm Also, if AHK and remapping keys have been questioned so much, then they absolutely be in the ::rules. They are not macros or bots or autoclickers. They are hotkeys. If this server doesn't allow hotkeys it needs in be in the ::rules. Quoting a discussion from who know's IMO is not any type of official stance. (Since offical stances and personal opinions often get confused.

AHK can do a hell of a lot more than just remapping keys. Usually when people are talking about AHK in the context of an RSPS they are not talking about rebinding one key to another.

Marklauten wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:43 pm To clarify, my mouse movements are hard coded. They will happen whether I have PkHonor Open or not.

That is a lie and you know it. You were using software to locate certain things on your screen and move your mouse to that location, just like you were using softwere to locate the XP drops and play a sound when there weren't any.

Disclaimer:
Haven't read Rapsey's post yet

Patel wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:49 pm

Marklauten wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:43 pm To clarify, my mouse movements are hard coded. They will happen whether I have PkHonor Open or not. A separate conversation if talking my personal program which does not affect the pk client at all. There is not "program looks for this and then does this" The only time that happens is with the audio file. I could start that add-on and the client, logs, mods, or admins would have no way of knowing. I take 0 data from the client at all. 100% of my actions are hard coded OR taken from my monitor. Not the client itself. My XP drops comes from my monitor information. The Ding is the notification that I have gone afk and I need to look at screen again.

We haven't discussed add-ons like that at all.

That's a lot better IMO. Doesn't change the official stance, nor would it permit a public release of any sort of add on, but principally I think that's ok.

I'm just going to point out, this is how AHK and MouseKeys are used on OSRS:


Contrast that with Mark's video (timestamp 5:32 for actual "1:1" mappings):


The main thing to note is that in the first video, he specifically mentions that using AHK to move the mouse is not allowed (timestamp 3:13). But also, Mark's script (and yes, it's a script) is not the same as 1:1, it's literally choosing a click location from an array of data based on what it observes.

Raj wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:08 pm Disclaimer:
Haven't read Rapsey's post yet

Patel wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:49 pm

Marklauten wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:43 pm To clarify, my mouse movements are hard coded. They will happen whether I have PkHonor Open or not. A separate conversation if talking my personal program which does not affect the pk client at all. There is not "program looks for this and then does this" The only time that happens is with the audio file. I could start that add-on and the client, logs, mods, or admins would have no way of knowing. I take 0 data from the client at all. 100% of my actions are hard coded OR taken from my monitor. Not the client itself. My XP drops comes from my monitor information. The Ding is the notification that I have gone afk and I need to look at screen again.

We haven't discussed add-ons like that at all.

That's a lot better IMO. Doesn't change the official stance, nor would it permit a public release of any sort of add on, but principally I think that's ok.

I'm just going to point out, this is how AHK and MouseKeys are used on OSRS:


Contrast that with Mark's video (timestamp 5:32 for actual "1:1" mappings):


The main thing to note is that in the first video, he specifically mentions that using AHK to move the mouse is not allowed (timestamp 3:13). But also, Mark's script (and yes, it's a script) is not the same as 1:1, it's literally choosing a click location from an array of data based on what it observes.

Don't misquote me. In my video I used an example of my add-on detecting if the tree's were available. Using the array to let me know how many trees are in sight and if they have been chopped down. It absolutely is not a script. If my mouse movements we based of the information described in my addon that separate. Are you telling me I am not allowed to have my computer make a ding noise when it searches my screen? That is a seperate issue. My mouse moves no matter what is on the screen. Tree or no tree. Yes my add0on tells me if there are trees. But if I wasnt using an addon my movement still would work. So if there is any issue you have an issue with the addon telling me that there are trees on the screen. The add-on prevents me from putting inputs in unless there is a tree. It doesnt tell the mouse button where to go.

Example. If i picked a different spot. It would still have to be oriented in the same way. That is why my compass is facing north and I am zoomed all the way out and looking as far down as possible. If i changed my orientation my "movement" would still happen but it wouldnt be on the tree since i rotated my camera or whatnot

Raj wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:08 pm

Yes, Rapsey goes in and more or less calls him out. I should've said "That's a lot better if true". I've been advocating for the first video more or less, with the caveat the I don't see a huge difference between (Move left 2) -> Click -> (Move right 2). and (Move Left 2) -> (Move up 4) -> Click -> (Move down 4) -> (Move right two) -> click -> and so on. I now agree that moving diagonally ought to count as two movements instead of one (since it's x AND y), so an additional key is required.

Marklauten wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:20 pm Don't misquote me. In my video I used an example of my add-on detecting if the tree's were available. Using the array to let me know how many trees are in sight and if they have been chopped down. It absolutely is not a script.

You are aware Python is a scripting language, right? It is by definition a script.

Marklauten wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:20 pm My mouse moves no matter what is on the screen. Tree or no tree. Yes my add0on tells me if there are trees. But if I wasnt using an addon my movement still would work. So if there is any issue you have an issue with the addon telling me that there are trees on the screen. The add-on prevents me from putting inputs in unless there is a tree. It doesnt tell the mouse button where to go.

Again, this entire quote is a blatant lie and you know it.

Marklauten wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:14 pm Okay, Just to be clear, the following is true in the definition of Server Rules:

1.) ANY 1:1 remap or reassignment of keys are illegal. To include:
a.) Remapping a key to preform the action of any other button or key.
b.) Remapping an action to include mouse movements with any other action or tool OTHER than the mouse.

Basically, you have to have original "factory" settings to play this server. Any modifications, remapping, key assignment, etc, is explicitly illegal and against the rules.

I cannot tell if you are misunderstanding us on purpose at this point or not.