PkHonor

Getting Helper rank is not a promotion (well atleast in my mind).
It's more like taking some extra duties and you actually have to give more effort to community/server.
I really don't see it as a promotion.

OT: i don't think that it will be more clear for new players who to approach with their questions
if there will be like 20 helpers around, it might give opposite effect.
Then again, if you divide them that all the timezones will be covered, maybe. Not sure.

Anyway, looking forward for it. Hope it gonna work out

Kavlar you're talking bullshit. Helper is not something for people who are not capable of being a staff member, or not being trusted. Hell, I would trust Jacob more than most mods and I think he would be capable. But helper is different from being a staff member, and some people just prefer to be a helper. What is wrong with that? Your complete view on helper is incorrect.

It's a fucking runescape private server. You should be thankful for everyone who wants to spend their time helping other people and moderating the server. You don't get paid. You won't make more progress ingame, you have to sacrifice time. Be fucking thankful for everyone who spent their time as long as they could. Don't blame them for not being able to spent their time anymore in moderating the game.

Amount wrote:Couple of points of feedback:

1. Brashness of large-scale decisions.
This has been an issue in the past, though not for a good while. When making larger decisions, it'd be prudent to take the time to fully contemplate not only the decision itself, but the execution of the decision. What just happened was, quite frankly, a mess. A pretty absolute failure from a management perspective.

Completely agree that the execution of this decision could have been better. My apologies.

Amount wrote: 2. Temporary void.
Until the new Helper rank is implemented, there's going to be a temporary void whereby there are no distinguished individuals for newer to visibly recognise as sources of help and information. I suppose this ties into point one; a cleaner execution of this rank reformation would have been to keep the past model in action until the time that the new Helper rank was ready.

I don't really think there's going to be a big void, just the way how players search for help might be a bit more difficult. The PkHonor-chat and public yell will probably be the most-used channels for the players seeking help. As for the help-requests, those will need to be handled by the online moderators for now, giving them the chance to close the gap between the staff and the community as well.

This game should be about having fun. Not being a "job" of some sort that you would have to log in daily to meet your requirements, especially for helpers. They are special people who actually enjoy to help people when in need. Not many people can handle that from time to time. There will always be people on leave, for school, family or other irl stuff. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't give them a chance at it. Everyone has equal chance to gain anything in here, its how they go by doing it is what defines them. If you aren't able to help anymore, you shouldn't have the rank. If you aren't able to be a consistent mod, then you shouldn't have the rank, simple as that. It's people that make those sacrifices to help grow and further this server that makes them great at what they do. It's who will put in the extra effort to make someone's day easier or help them with something, and that isn't for everybody, only for a qualified few who can handle it. We do this out of goodness of our hearts and being online, there aren't that many people that will want to do this.

Wir3d wrote:This game should be about having fun. Not being a "job" of some sort that you would have to log in daily to meet your requirements, especially for helpers. They are special people who actually enjoy to help people when in need. Not many people can handle that from time to time. There will always be people on leave, for school, family or other irl stuff. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't give them a chance at it. Everyone has equal chance to gain anything in here, its how they go by doing it is what defines them. If you aren't able to help anymore, you shouldn't have the rank. If you aren't able to be a consistent mod, then you shouldn't have the rank, simple as that. It's people that make those sacrifices to help grow and further this server that makes them great at what they do. It's who will put in the extra effort to make someone's day easier or help them with something, and that isn't for everybody, only for a qualified few who can handle it. We do this out of goodness of our hearts and being online, there aren't that many people that will want to do this.

^^^^^
I think the helper team we had a few days ago was fine. They were all great people and most of them good helpers. Although i havent heard anything at all about the helper system rework so i cant really comment too much on what will/should happen to the good ones like jacob.

Kavlar wrote: Haven't heard that blanket statement in a while, oh wait, yeah I did. I heard it for 4 years when people gave the excuse "I applied for a staff rank willfully knowing my time is limited". I don't care if you have college and you're trying to better yourself. Mike is running a business and if you can't give him time to assist in that, why did you apply. No offence to anyone who's a staff member and has duties outside of this realm, but you giving the excuse "Sorry I can't be on all the time, college". Basically is a cop out when you knew your time was completely limited.

So because someone can't dedicate all of their time to the private server, they're a cop out?

In fact they *are* still giving Mike their time. Perhaps you'd prefer one moderator as opposed to the current 4, because that'd make everything better, right? What you're asking is extremely unrealistic. Heck, why do businesses (charity shops, restaurants etc) along with say, hospitals, accept volunteer workers? Because despite the fact that volunteers can't give 100% of their time, they still have a positive impact.

It's stressed time and time again that moderators won't be turned down due to too many on the staff team already. So in the highly unlikely even that Mike finds his wonderchild, what harm would the extra mods do?

Kavlar wrote:

Hayden wrote:

Kavlar wrote: I don't get that part.
If the person in question doesn't want to be a staff member, why are you giving them an official rank?

Because people can want helper but not moderator, just like someone can like burritos but not tacos

Yeah that makes Zero sense.
This is the reason why your staff team is abysmal. You hire people that don't even want to do the job. "I don't want Moderator, but I wan't to act like a Moderator and assist people". I mean seriously, if you honestly think that makes sense, you need to reevaluate where you stand as a staff member.

I'll tell you what you're right about - the staff team isn't the best it can be. There's a lot of discussion going on about it, I assume that you've been reading the forums, and you're probably the most recent addition to the debate.

The reason the staff team is lacking what it does (which is a lengthy discussion on its own) is not because of what you mentioned. I mentioned 3 reasons that players become helpers, and if I must spell it out for you, those are the three most common. There are obviously more. However, you failed to even recognize the existence of the other two, and focused solely on the first one. It is not the largest motivator, and plays a very small role in the "abysmal" nature of the staff team.

Now that you're upto speed, here's why it's perfectly reasonable, rational, and even effective for some helpers to be helpers without wanting to be moderators.

If you're going to be a moderator, you're obligated to dedicate a lot of time to the game doing far more than just playing it. The best staff members hardly even played the game itself, they just helped people and did staff duties. If you want to avoid doing things like reports, hack cases, scam cases, and dissolving fights, you can still answer menial questions. That's what helpers are for. They do the easiest and most densely packed part of the job. Now, I agree that doing this should also be a part of the trial process. Read some of my recent posts - I'm a huge proponent of making trials do a lot more, so that moderators do a lot more. However, the reason this version of a helper was introduced was because we simply never had enough moderators to answer everyone's questions. In hindsight, it was an alternative solution to a big problem, the big problem being that staff members were simply not as driven as they used to be.

When you were a Gmod (4 years ago, which coincidentally coincides with the Golden Era of PkHonor and many RSPS's in general), everyone was a teen. The average age I saw in a poll ~2012 was 16. That's highschool age. Highschool is a time when you can come home from school and play a game on a computer with few repercussions. Fast forward 4 years, and you'll find that a lot of those same kids are now applying to colleges and getting jobs. It starts to make sense that people are less willing to spend their time on PkHonor. I don't blame them, in fact, I applaud them. But they're also the reason that the staff team is, in your words, "abysmal". You have to find a way to motivate people to take a bit more time out of their day to moderate PkHonor. Or you have to find the most numerous type of help request (simple questions) and create a reliable rank that can handle it in the stead of active moderators. This way moderators can deal with the cases that their trust and intellect require, and you have (theoretically) a system that is efficient.

EDIT: I re-read your previous posts and mixed up "4 years" with "4 years ago". My bad. Though the idea still applies; the futher back you go, the more free time the average player had.

But this falls short because the ways the moderators are trained (and have been for a couple of years now) has changed. The mentality has changed. People are less willing to listen because they've developed views of their own. So many things have changed compared to 4 years ago that it's almost irrelevant to mention that you were a mod back then unless you have a very nuanced and developed stance that stems from the fact.

^Irrelevant.

So I respect your opinion, but you don't have all the answers.

Moving on,

Ryan wrote:

Wir3d wrote:This game should be about having fun. Not being a "job" of some sort that you would have to log in daily to meet your requirements, especially for helpers. They are special people who actually enjoy to help people when in need. Not many people can handle that from time to time. There will always be people on leave, for school, family or other irl stuff. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't give them a chance at it. Everyone has equal chance to gain anything in here, its how they go by doing it is what defines them. If you aren't able to help anymore, you shouldn't have the rank. If you aren't able to be a consistent mod, then you shouldn't have the rank, simple as that. It's people that make those sacrifices to help grow and further this server that makes them great at what they do. It's who will put in the extra effort to make someone's day easier or help them with something, and that isn't for everybody, only for a qualified few who can handle it. We do this out of goodness of our hearts and being online, there aren't that many people that will want to do this.

^^^^^
I think the helper team we had a few days ago was fine. They were all great people and most of them good helpers. Although i havent heard anything at all about the helper system rework so i cant really comment too much on what will/should happen to the good ones like jacob.

@Wir3d I think I haven't conveyed it properly. I don't mean that helpers will have a "job", but they will be held to a standard. It's not going to be a free rank. You have to atleast commit a little, otherwise there's no point in you being a beacon of light for players lost in the darkness. People currently do and in the future will look to you for help. Hence why activity (to a very small degree, much lesser than that of a moderator) should be an obligation. The reason this wouldn't fall short is because there are a lot of people out there that want to be helpers. A lot of them are "randoms", but they still exist, and they're willing to work for it.

For a moderator, the activity required would be much greater than that of a helper, because they'd be held to a much higher standard. Helpers are there to do it out of the good of their hearts, yes, but a lot (if not most) do enjoy the recognition as well (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that). That recognition is meaningless if the rank itself holds no responsibility or obligation.

Kishan wrote:So because someone can't dedicate all of their time to the private server, they're a cop out?

In fact they *are* still giving Mike their time. Perhaps you'd prefer one moderator as opposed to the current 4, because that'd make everything better, right? What you're asking is extremely unrealistic. Heck, why do businesses (charity shops, restaurants etc) along with say, hospitals, accept volunteer workers? Because despite the fact that volunteers can't give 100% of their time, they still have a positive impact.

It's like saying if a person only has 20 hours of free time a week, and dedicates 18 hours of their time to volunteering is crap because they can't spend more of their time volunteering opposed to someone that has 60 hours free time, and only gives up 20 hours and is being held in a "shinier light", because they were able to give up more hours than the person who could only dedicate 20 hours or under of their spare time.


That's fucked ._. quality over quantity.

(directed at Kevlars approach on this btw)

eater wrote:

Ryan wrote:

Wir3d wrote:This game should be about having fun. Not being a "job" of some sort that you would have to log in daily to meet your requirements, especially for helpers. They are special people who actually enjoy to help people when in need. Not many people can handle that from time to time. There will always be people on leave, for school, family or other irl stuff. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't give them a chance at it. Everyone has equal chance to gain anything in here, its how they go by doing it is what defines them. If you aren't able to help anymore, you shouldn't have the rank. If you aren't able to be a consistent mod, then you shouldn't have the rank, simple as that. It's people that make those sacrifices to help grow and further this server that makes them great at what they do. It's who will put in the extra effort to make someone's day easier or help them with something, and that isn't for everybody, only for a qualified few who can handle it. We do this out of goodness of our hearts and being online, there aren't that many people that will want to do this.

^^^^^
I think the helper team we had a few days ago was fine. They were all great people and most of them good helpers. Although i havent heard anything at all about the helper system rework so i cant really comment too much on what will/should happen to the good ones like jacob.

@Wir3d I think I haven't conveyed it properly. I don't mean that helpers will have a "job", but they will be held to a standard. It's not going to be a free rank. You have to atleast commit a little, otherwise there's no point in you being a beacon of light for players lost in the darkness. People currently do and in the future will look to you for help. Hence why activity (to a very small degree, much lesser than that of a moderator) should be an obligation. The reason this wouldn't fall short is because there are a lot of people out there that want to be helpers. A lot of them are "randoms", but they still exist, and they're willing to work for it.

For a moderator, the activity required would be much greater than that of a helper, because they'd be held to a much higher standard. Helpers are there to do it out of the good of their hearts, yes, but a lot (if not most) do enjoy the recognition as well (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that). That recognition is meaningless if the rank itself holds no responsibility or obligation.

I agree that there should be a standard\requirements for helpers. I think you have me misread or something, as I totally agree with you and have said in other posts about giving up their time to help others. I agree that more should be prospected but some gain helpers to be a stepping stone to becoming a moderator and this makes it easier for that transition to happen, which I think it shouldnt be at all.

And i think every one deserves a chance to be a helper. To show what they have or if they can improve themselves to become a helper. We've had many great helpers in past, present and I hope the future. Let see where this will lead us in a few days and await billy's decision on this.

Loxy wrote:

Kishan wrote:So because someone can't dedicate all of their time to the private server, they're a cop out?

In fact they *are* still giving Mike their time. Perhaps you'd prefer one moderator as opposed to the current 4, because that'd make everything better, right? What you're asking is extremely unrealistic. Heck, why do businesses (charity shops, restaurants etc) along with say, hospitals, accept volunteer workers? Because despite the fact that volunteers can't give 100% of their time, they still have a positive impact.

It's like saying if a person only has 20 hours of free time a week, and dedicates 18 hours of their time to volunteering is crap because they can't spend more of their time volunteering opposed to someone that has 60 hours free time, and only gives up 20 hours and is being held in a "shinier light", because they were able to give up more hours than the person who could only dedicate 20 hours or under of their spare time.


That's fucked ._. quality over quantity.

(directed at Kevlars approach on this btw)

I don't really understand either of your statements. So, you're basically saying, "Eh, let the current staff team do what they're doing, at least they're on for 30minutes a day". I don't really get what is getting lost in translation. It's common sense, demote those that are inactive promote those that are active. I don't get why this has to be some sort of popularity game where those that are the most popular get tenure and have the benefit of the doubt then those that are unknown are cast aside.

I'll be honest, the only Moderator I know In-Game is Toeh. You both are making it seem like it has to be more of a job and less of a game. 2-3 hours a day for a staff member that cycles between other members in specific timezones is ubiquitous. You currently have 1-2 on average staff members for 24 hour cycle for 230+ concurrent members. That's 115 people per person. Not to mention a plethora of Helpers; when it comes down to it, Helpers might as well be Staff Members since those are the only authoritative figures members can look towards if they need assistance.