17 players

[Patel]

I don't think either Mike or Rapsey will step down from PkHonor, I guess the server will go out like a candle.

Imo they don't need to step down, they just need to allow someone to step up

I actually disagree, they’ve had years to do this and they never have if on a hypothetical pkhonor boomed again what they get to just come back from other peoples work and they can carry on like they haven’t left the game to die for the last 10 years? Best thing to do is for them to give people there roles and for them to step away I sympathised before with them sticking around but they’re just simply unreliable. The moment pkhonor goes back to shit again they’d just dip. There’s no excuse for there laziness for the last 10 years.

Based on what I understand about them, I don't expect them to ever fully let go of PkHonor so I don't think asking them to step down would ever lead to anything. I don't necessarily disagree, but I also think that the fact that both had an equal share and there was no third party led to a lot of stalemates, which would have easily been remedied by elevating someone else to super user status as I suggest. But at this point, I don't think someone who can tip the vote needs to be added, someone who doesn't need a vote needs to be added.

Both mean well for the server (I think), but neither of them was ever in tune with the community enough to make decisions regarding it in contentious times, which led to internal strife and their own burnout. They often chose a philosophical approach that I would criticize as lacking pragmatism and immediacy, which I emphasized because the server was headed, well, in this particular direction.

They also didn't agree with each other on many issues, have had issues working as a team. One might have had the time and energy to work on something great, while the other didn't or didn't approve of the project. This was ongoing throughout the last 10+ years I've been aware of it.

The best hope we have for changing the direction the server is headed in is to allow someone else to take the steering wheel (as far as head programmer goes) even if M&R want to sit in the passenger seat or switch off every now and then. As long as someone else has access to the entirety of the server and needs to ask them nothing, it can escape an idle death.

[Ktm drip]

Imo they don't need to step down, they just need to allow someone to step up

I actually disagree, they’ve had years to do this and they never have if on a hypothetical pkhonor boomed again what they get to just come back from other peoples work and they can carry on like they haven’t left the game to die for the last 10 years? Best thing to do is for them to give people there roles and for them to step away I sympathised before with them sticking around but they’re just simply unreliable. The moment pkhonor goes back to shit again they’d just dip. There’s no excuse for there laziness for the last 10 years.

Based on what I understand about them, I don't expect them to ever fully let go of PkHonor so I don't think asking them to step down would ever lead to anything. I don't necessarily disagree, but I also think that the fact that both had an equal share and there was no third party led to a lot of stalemates, which would have easily been remedied by elevating someone else to super user status as I suggest. But at this point, I don't think someone who can tip the vote needs to be added, someone who doesn't need a vote needs to be added.

Both mean well for the server (I think), but neither of them was ever in tune with the community enough to make decisions regarding it in contentious times, which led to internal strife and their own burnout. They often chose a philosophical approach that I would criticize as lacking pragmatism and immediacy, which I emphasized because the server was headed, well, in this particular direction.

They also didn't agree with each other on many issues, have had issues working as a team. One might have had the time and energy to work on something great, while the other didn't or didn't approve of the project. This was ongoing throughout the last 10+ years I've been aware of it.

The best hope we have for changing the direction the server is headed in is to allow someone else to take the steering wheel (as far as head programmer goes) even if M&R want to sit in the passenger seat or switch off every now and then. As long as someone else has access to the entirety of the server and needs to ask them nothing, it can escape an idle death.

I think even on the bases of what you’ve said an argument can be made that neither one of them really knew what was good for the game considering they clashed on ideas and disagreed on updates ect. Even if you disagree with certain projects or ideas something is better than nothing and if they didn’t wanna help each other think it shows a lot more about them then it doesn’t. Realistically when the game was booming making money they were active when it started to decline they dipped. Don’t think they will actually fully give anybody sort of there roles and permissions because if they wanted to they coulda done that ages ago it’s just they want Pkh to boom again but on free work from devs and when it does (which it most likely won’t) they’d wanna be apart of the community again.

[Iron adam]

Realistically when the game was booming making money they were active when it started to decline they dipped.

You have it backwards. It was booming and making money because they were somewhat active (and enabling many other members of the community to contribute). Their decrease in activity is what directly caused the decline of pkhonor.

Those of us who know them personally can vouch for the fact that they are not greedy opportunists.

[Smokeyfr]

word but somfinks gotta happen

[Ktm drip]

Realistically when the game was booming making money they were active when it started to decline they dipped.

You have it backwards. It was booming and making money because they were somewhat active (and enabling many other members of the community to contribute). Their decrease in activity is what directly caused the decline of pkhonor.

Those of us who know them personally can vouch for the fact that they are not greedy opportunists.

They were never really active, from the time I played even old forums discussions to back this up, they’ve always been mia always lacked updates and communication pkh boomed because it was only one of few rsps around. The server declined the moment they couldn’t keep up with other servers and the updates and content they could do and the ignorance to not allow others to help costed them dearly. Am i saying they’re greedy opportunistic people no however they were only “active” because this was their full time job, the moment it wasn’t due to less interest in the game less money coming in they became more and more distant each time. And yeah I’d believe if the server was as active as it was 2011-2016 era they’d be back in a heartbeat because why wouldn’t they?
Just a quick edit if you look at past updates they’ve done excluding the free work done by naz/fungamer/andres/raj/brant maybe a few more what did they do that was original to pkh? There just isn’t much and everything that we have today is because of the free work those devs did, I can give credit where credit is due Mike fully coded tob and cox I believe but again that’s something from osrs and many other servers just had. Pkh has had the same two donator ranks from the geko just in terms of personal innovation Pkh has always lacked, we were never going be a carbon copy of osrs so I never saw the interest in trying so

[Patel]

Realistically when the game was booming making money they were active when it started to decline they dipped.

You have it backwards. It was booming and making money because they were somewhat active (and enabling many other members of the community to contribute). Their decrease in activity is what directly caused the decline of pkhonor.

Those of us who know them personally can vouch for the fact that they are not greedy opportunists.

They were never really active, from the time I played even old forums discussions to back this up, they’ve always been mia always lacked updates and communication pkh boomed because it was only one of few rsps around. The server declined the moment they couldn’t keep up with other servers and the updates and content they could do and the ignorance to not allow others to help costed them dearly. Am i saying they’re greedy opportunistic people no however they were only “active” because this was their full time job, the moment it wasn’t due to less interest in the game less money coming in they became more and more distant each time. And yeah I’d believe if the server was as active as it was 2011-2016 era they’d be back in a heartbeat because why wouldn’t they?
Just a quick edit if you look at past updates they’ve done excluding the free work done by naz/fungamer/andres/raj/brant maybe a few more what did they do that was original to pkh? There just isn’t much and everything that we have today is because of the free work those devs did, I can give credit where credit is due Mike fully coded tob and cox I believe but again that’s something from osrs and many other servers just had. Pkh has had the same two donator ranks from the geko just in terms of personal innovation Pkh has always lacked, we were never going be a carbon copy of osrs so I never saw the interest in trying so

Yeah, Mike and Rapsey stopped being involved with the community in ~2010, and explicitly let Hamade be the front-facing entity who dealt with all that. For a long time, we discussed the need for a 'community manager', who vaguely fit the role of someone that everyone knew and trusted, and who had their best interests in mind. It's a little different from owner but it highlighted the fact that Mike and Rapsey were not 'community managers' after that early period. Once Hamade left, they had to take the reigns and become co-owners, which is totally understandable IMO. But it caused a restructuring that never remedied itself, which was not having someone that was community-facing and independently powerful be on the same level as them. Not Maurits, not Stefan, not Ryan, not any staff manager has really occupied the same role or level as Hamade did besides sort of Billy. But Billy was not a grassroots manager, and he struggled to understand the community (throwback to making everyone helper...)

Mike fully coded tob and cox I believe but again that’s something from osrs and many other servers just had. Pkh has had the same two donator ranks from the geko just in terms of personal innovation Pkh has always lacked, we were never going be a carbon copy of osrs so I never saw the interest in trying

They did a fair bit lol. Mike made the first server with fully implemented construction in 2013, and pretty much set up the base game with Rapsey. I think after that boom and success the amount and pace of work he did slowly began to decrease. Dylan was onboarded as a trusted dev, we got Andres, Thoby, and so on, but we never really kept members long enough to comprise a whole team.

You're right that the last several years of updates have been increasingly outside dev work, but that is the point isn't it? We want outside dev work.

And yeah I’d believe if the server was as active as it was 2011-2016 era they’d be back in a heartbeat because why wouldn’t they?

They might become more active and put some time into a few updates, but I doubt they'd last long unless something more fundamental changed for them outside of PkHonor. I think they care about the game but simply can/do not prioritize it anymore (also understandable). If they didn't care about they game they would have sold the code a while ago to any one of their many buyers. I remember when Pip from Soulsplit came by, we had maybe 200 on, SS had 800 or so. He was concerned about the state of RSPS and wanted to enter some kind of collaboration with PkHonor to combine the communities but keep the separate games alive. Money would have been involved. It was an quick and resounding no from the higher ups - the game is also theirs and they care about maintaining that truth.

[Ktm drip]

You have it backwards. It was booming and making money because they were somewhat active (and enabling many other members of the community to contribute). Their decrease in activity is what directly caused the decline of pkhonor.

Those of us who know them personally can vouch for the fact that they are not greedy opportunists.

They were never really active, from the time I played even old forums discussions to back this up, they’ve always been mia always lacked updates and communication pkh boomed because it was only one of few rsps around. The server declined the moment they couldn’t keep up with other servers and the updates and content they could do and the ignorance to not allow others to help costed them dearly. Am i saying they’re greedy opportunistic people no however they were only “active” because this was their full time job, the moment it wasn’t due to less interest in the game less money coming in they became more and more distant each time. And yeah I’d believe if the server was as active as it was 2011-2016 era they’d be back in a heartbeat because why wouldn’t they?
Just a quick edit if you look at past updates they’ve done excluding the free work done by naz/fungamer/andres/raj/brant maybe a few more what did they do that was original to pkh? There just isn’t much and everything that we have today is because of the free work those devs did, I can give credit where credit is due Mike fully coded tob and cox I believe but again that’s something from osrs and many other servers just had. Pkh has had the same two donator ranks from the geko just in terms of personal innovation Pkh has always lacked, we were never going be a carbon copy of osrs so I never saw the interest in trying so

Yeah, Mike and Rapsey stopped being involved with the community in ~2010, and explicitly let Hamade be the front-facing entity who dealt with all that. For a long time, we discussed the need for a 'community manager', who vaguely fit the role of someone that everyone knew and trusted, and who had their best interests in mind. It's a little different from owner but it highlighted the fact that Mike and Rapsey were not 'community managers' after that early period. Once Hamade left, they had to take the reigns and become co-owners, which is totally understandable IMO. But it caused a restructuring that never remedied itself, which was not having someone that was community-facing and independently powerful be on the same level as them. Not Maurits, not Stefan, not Ryan, not any staff manager has really occupied the same role or level as Hamade did besides sort of Billy. But Billy was not a grassroots manager, and he struggled to understand the community (throwback to making everyone helper...)

Mike fully coded tob and cox I believe but again that’s something from osrs and many other servers just had. Pkh has had the same two donator ranks from the geko just in terms of personal innovation Pkh has always lacked, we were never going be a carbon copy of osrs so I never saw the interest in trying

They did a fair bit lol. Mike made the first server with fully implemented construction in 2013, and pretty much set up the base game with Rapsey. I think after that boom and success the amount and pace of work he did slowly began to decrease. Dylan was onboarded as a trusted dev, we got Andres, Thoby, and so on, but we never really kept members long enough to comprise a whole team.

You're right that the last several years of updates have been increasingly outside dev work, but that is the point isn't it? We want outside dev work.

And yeah I’d believe if the server was as active as it was 2011-2016 era they’d be back in a heartbeat because why wouldn’t they?

They might become more active and put some time into a few updates, but I doubt they'd last long unless something more fundamental changed for them outside of PkHonor. I think they care about the game but simply can/do not prioritize it anymore (also understandable). If they didn't care about they game they would have sold the code a while ago to any one of their many buyers. I remember when Pip from Soulsplit came by, we had maybe 200 on, SS had 800 or so. He was concerned about the state of RSPS and wanted to enter some kind of collaboration with PkHonor to combine the communities but keep the separate games alive. Money would have been involved. It was an quick and resounding no from the higher ups - the game is also theirs and they care about maintaining that truth.

Just an fyi my point was they’ve never done anything I just dont think they just did enough or really tried too. 2013 we might’ve gotten a full coded construction but again besides that what else? I’m talking about full innovation of their own ideas yes we always got bits but nothing really unique. Like I’ve said we’ve had two same two donator ranks, the same 7 custom whips, donation rewards, the same bosses outside of what osrs did, voting rewards have always been poor, no item sinks outside of aching, no ways to get money out the game, even content like if you go on YouTube you wouldn’t even know Phhonor was a thing. Pkh has just always lived off hard core loyal players and lived of old success. Pkh could have easily done its own thing own unique bosses items ect but just always used what rs or osrs already did.
Also dont believe anybody is expecting much from them in terms of communication but too go this radio silent is crazy, is 5 minutes too much to ask for? We’ve got life’s jobs family’s ect and manage 5 minutes here n there why can’t they?
I’ve been a big supporter of giving raj and Brant the permissions of “owner” for a while as they seemed to care about the game and actually communicate about stuff that involves dev stuff and they were doing it all for free and even got a decent amount of stick towards them (more towards raj)
And no I don’t think a rsps should succeed or want free work given and that be the reason why the game is successful the owners should be dictating what gets done and they should be the full force of pushing the rsps to the top but they’ve just done the opposite. I’m a saying they’re bad people no, but as rsps owners they never filled the boots they should have and when they decline help to do dev work for free and completely shut out YouTube advertising it’s just no wonder the game is where it is.
It’s like this who’s gonna play a rsps or a new player when they log in and it’s like been back in 2015 where nothing we have today even competes closely to the top 20 odd rsps out there. And it’s even worse when there’s no active staff (which is fair cause I’m logging in and there’s 10 players online) and no updates just radio silent. And this is all because rapsey or mike never pushed enough to get people like raj and Brant or whoever full access to the game and sorta make “owner decisions”

[Patel]

@Ktm drip yeah, I think we can all agree that if the server is to survive, they have to give someone the same level of authority and control as they have. Plain and simple.

[Stefan]

Just an fyi my point was they’ve never done anything I just dont think they just did enough or really tried too. 2013 we might’ve gotten a full coded construction but again besides that what else? I’m talking about full innovation of their own ideas yes we always got bits but nothing really unique. Like I’ve said we’ve had two same two donator ranks, the same 7 custom whips, donation rewards, the same bosses outside of what osrs did, voting rewards have always been poor, no item sinks outside of aching, no ways to get money out the game, even content like if you go on YouTube you wouldn’t even know Phhonor was a thing. Pkh has just always lived off hard core loyal players and lived of old success. Pkh could have easily done its own thing own unique bosses items ect but just always used what rs or osrs already did.
Also dont believe anybody is expecting much from them in terms of communication but too go this radio silent is crazy, is 5 minutes too much to ask for? We’ve got life’s jobs family’s ect and manage 5 minutes here n there why can’t they?
I’ve been a big supporter of giving raj and Brant the permissions of “owner” for a while as they seemed to care about the game and actually communicate about stuff that involves dev stuff and they were doing it all for free and even got a decent amount of stick towards them (more towards raj)
And no I don’t think a rsps should succeed or want free work given and that be the reason why the game is successful the owners should be dictating what gets done and they should be the full force of pushing the rsps to the top but they’ve just done the opposite. I’m a saying they’re bad people no, but as rsps owners they never filled the boots they should have and when they decline help to do dev work for free and completely shut out YouTube advertising it’s just no wonder the game is where it is.
It’s like this who’s gonna play a rsps or a new player when they log in and it’s like been back in 2015 where nothing we have today even competes closely to the top 20 odd rsps out there. And it’s even worse when there’s no active staff (which is fair cause I’m logging in and there’s 10 players online) and no updates just radio silent. And this is all because rapsey or mike never pushed enough to get people like raj and Brant or whoever full access to the game and sorta make “owner decisions”

I don't think the server ever existed for the purpose of creating its own content. And as far as I remember, I don't think that was ever promised, I think that might just be the wishes of players. I love this server. It's important to my history as a person and my own characteristic growth but maybe it is time to let it go. I think this server was amazing at offering what you couldn't really find elsewhere for free back in the day but it always was expected to go downhill after OSRS came out.

@Ktm drip yeah, I think we can all agree that if the server is to survive, they have to give someone the same level of authority and control as they have. Plain and simple.

I don't think that would ever happen. As much as I would like it to happen just for the sake of preserving what this once was. I don't see it happening.

I was around a long time ago and haven't been around recently. Mostly due to not having any interest and more so committing time to OSRS and other things. I think I first played around 2010 and people then were generally happy just getting what they were getting

[Patel]

I don't think that would ever happen. As much as I would like it to happen just for the sake of preserving what this once was. I don't see it happening.

I was around a long time ago and haven't been around recently. Mostly due to not having any interest and more so committing time to OSRS and other things. I think I first played around 2010 and people then were generally happy just getting what they were getting

Sadly, I agree. I just wanted to emphasize that this is likely the most important condition that they'd have to meet to move the server towards growth.

Based on everything I can recall from conversations with them, that's not something they want to do.