PkHonor

Rapsey wrote:

Amount wrote:2. Temporary void.
Until the new Helper rank is implemented, there's going to be a temporary void whereby there are no distinguished individuals for newer to visibly recognise as sources of help and information. I suppose this ties into point one; a cleaner execution of this rank reformation would have been to keep the past model in action until the time that the new Helper rank was ready.

That is because previously we failed to consider how changing the rank (or our approach to handling the rank) would diminish the achievement of those who had it before. Every time we tried to change something about the rank we met with fierce opposition regarding the prestige and perception of the rank in its current form. Rather than trying to compete with that perception or weakening it, we felt it would be better to clearly mark the end of the old helper rank. We hope this will make everyone more open to considering a different approach instead of expecting the new helper rank to be everything the old one was perceived to be.

Don't get me wrong, we're not doing this to make the changes easier to swallow. We want to make changes the community approves of. We just feel that as long as the old rank is around, any changes we propose will be judged by how the rank is currently viewed. We don't want to force our opinions onto anyone. What we would like is for people to stop thinking about what the rank should be and start thinking about what it could be. A fresh start seemed like the right way to achieve that. We may be without helpers for a few days but I'm sure we will survive it.

Honestly I wouldn't consider Helper an achievement; more of an insult to be honest.
The entire concept of Helper is to promote those who push themselves off from the proverbial ledge and show that they have what it takes to moderate, but all I see is a rank that basically means, "Hey so and so, we really don't trust you yet as a full staff member, so have this rank that basically is the equivalent of Player Mods in real Runescape and continue to impress, and we may promote you to trial".

If you feel that a player is acting prominently, and they're doing a stellar job, promote them to Trial, not doing as well as you thought? Demoted. You can't whitewash staff ranks, it's either someone is up to the job or not. I wouldn't trust a Helper rank as far as I could spit, because when it comes down to it, they're a donator with less privileges, there's nothing to look towards.

Kavlar wrote:

Rapsey wrote:

Amount wrote:2. Temporary void.
Until the new Helper rank is implemented, there's going to be a temporary void whereby there are no distinguished individuals for newer to visibly recognise as sources of help and information. I suppose this ties into point one; a cleaner execution of this rank reformation would have been to keep the past model in action until the time that the new Helper rank was ready.

That is because previously we failed to consider how changing the rank (or our approach to handling the rank) would diminish the achievement of those who had it before. Every time we tried to change something about the rank we met with fierce opposition regarding the prestige and perception of the rank in its current form. Rather than trying to compete with that perception or weakening it, we felt it would be better to clearly mark the end of the old helper rank. We hope this will make everyone more open to considering a different approach instead of expecting the new helper rank to be everything the old one was perceived to be.

Don't get me wrong, we're not doing this to make the changes easier to swallow. We want to make changes the community approves of. We just feel that as long as the old rank is around, any changes we propose will be judged by how the rank is currently viewed. We don't want to force our opinions onto anyone. What we would like is for people to stop thinking about what the rank should be and start thinking about what it could be. A fresh start seemed like the right way to achieve that. We may be without helpers for a few days but I'm sure we will survive it.

Honestly I wouldn't consider Helper an achievement; more of an insult to be honest.
The entire concept of Helper is to promote those who push themselves off from the proverbial ledge and show that they have what it takes to moderate, but all I see is a rank that basically means, "Hey so and so, we really don't trust you yet as a full staff member, so have this rank that basically is the equivalent of Player Mods in real Runescape and continue to impress, and we may promote you to trial".

If you feel that a player is acting prominently, and they're doing a stellar job, promote them to Trial, not doing as well as you thought? Demoted. You can't whitewash staff ranks, it's either someone is up to the job or not. I wouldn't trust a Helper rank as far as I could spit, because when it comes down to it, they're a donator with less privileges, there's nothing to look towards.

I disagree. Firstly, there are many helpers who simply do not want to be staff members. Then there are others who don't have the time/motivation to deal with cases or with player's issues, but are able to answer questions when need be. Then, yes, there are players who simply aren't upto the standard for being a staff member, but would arguably make for good helpers. How is it an insult to be honest with them and say that they can't be staff members? Truth sucks, but that's just life. You're welcome to decline the helper position, it's not like you have to have it.

No comment on the rest of the thread as of now. Though if you guys do have the time, I'd love to have some input/info on what you're planning to do with the helper rank.

Eater wrote: I disagree. Firstly, there are many helpers who simple do not want to be staff members. Then there are others who don't have the time/motivation to deal with cases or with player's issues, but are able to answer questions when need be. Then, yes, there are players who simply aren't upto the standard for being a staff member, but would arguably make for good helpers. How is it an insult to be honest with them and say that they can't be staff members? Truth sucks, but that's just life. You're welcome to decline the helper position, it's not like you have to have it.

I don't get that part.
If the person in question doesn't want to be a staff member, why are you giving them an official rank?
That's like giving someone who doesn't like Taco's a Burrito. It's either give someone the rank or not, you hamfisting the rank so that you can see if they're up to the job only makes Trial Moderator that much more of a useless rank. Why have Trial Moderator if Helper is Trial of sorts. Why have Helper when you have Trial Moderator?

See in the days I used to play Gmod, staff rank wasn't about an official rank or how much power you had, it was about you either did your job or you didn't. I didn't give people a second chance, you get Trial that comes with Kick/Freeze/Jail, if you couldn't do your job for 2 months with the given commands, you're out, no helper rank, no second chances, you were done, you weren't up to the task and you failed, simple as that. There was no line to wait in for the metaphorical carnival ride, there was no ticket that you held onto for the metaphorical line at the DMV, it was either you couldn't do it or you got Junior Moderator and went on from there. Helper rank does nothing other than give a reason for a person to second guess their capabilities as a staff member.

You guys can sit here and rant and rave on how I know nothing, and I'm new and how little I'm aware of the current situation, but when it comes down to it, something is wrong with your current system, and I'm not afraid to sit here and bring it up. There are so little staff members; ACTUAL Staff Members that are on. I don't care if you have college, or if you have duties outside of this game, resign and give it to the next person who can do your job and come back when you have more time. Mike is running a business, he's not running a carnival game where you can pick up at any time a play, if he loses potential customers because someone didn't like the vulgarities in yell, or the abusive chat, you essentially lost him money. I'm not going to sit here and tell you what to do, but you can't really provide a reasonable counter argument when the system is failing.

Kavlar wrote:

Eater wrote: I disagree. Firstly, there are many helpers who simple do not want to be staff members. Then there are others who don't have the time/motivation to deal with cases or with player's issues, but are able to answer questions when need be. Then, yes, there are players who simply aren't upto the standard for being a staff member, but would arguably make for good helpers. How is it an insult to be honest with them and say that they can't be staff members? Truth sucks, but that's just life. You're welcome to decline the helper position, it's not like you have to have it.

I don't get that part.
If the person in question doesn't want to be a staff member, why are you giving them an official rank?

Because people can want helper but not moderator, just like someone can like burritos but not tacos

Hayden wrote:

Kavlar wrote:

Eater wrote: I disagree. Firstly, there are many helpers who simple do not want to be staff members. Then there are others who don't have the time/motivation to deal with cases or with player's issues, but are able to answer questions when need be. Then, yes, there are players who simply aren't upto the standard for being a staff member, but would arguably make for good helpers. How is it an insult to be honest with them and say that they can't be staff members? Truth sucks, but that's just life. You're welcome to decline the helper position, it's not like you have to have it.

I don't get that part.
If the person in question doesn't want to be a staff member, why are you giving them an official rank?

Because people can want helper but not moderator, just like someone can like burritos but not tacos

Yeah that makes Zero sense.
This is the reason why your staff team is abysmal. You hire people that don't even want to do the job. "I don't want Moderator, but I wan't to act like a Moderator and assist people". I mean seriously, if you honestly think that makes sense, you need to reevaluate where you stand as a staff member.

Kavlar wrote:
Yeah that makes Zero sense.
This is the reason why you're staff team is abysmal. You hire people that don't even want to do the job. "I don't want Moderator, but I wan't to act like a Moderator and assist people". I mean seriously, if you honestly think that makes sense, you need to reevaluate where you stand as a staff member.

They aren't hiring anyone, it's all unpaid for the most part. So I'm sure you can forgive them for not wanting to spend all of their time helping people on a private server and focussing more on real life responsibilities.

Helpers aren't members of the staff team anyway, their role is literally to help out other players which is why they have no obligations.

Kavlar wrote:Yeah that makes Zero sense.
This is the reason why your staff team is abysmal. You hire people that don't even want to do the job. "I don't want Moderator, but I wan't to act like a Moderator and assist people". I mean seriously, if you honestly think that makes sense, you need to reevaluate where you stand as a staff member.

It makes complete sense. The problem is that helper is being viewed as a step towards moderator (or like you said just means they're not quite good enough for mod). That's not how it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be literally just people who help other people at the game. That is what they are trying to change.

Hayden wrote: It makes complete sense. The problem is that helper is being viewed as a step towards moderator (or like you said just means they're not quite good enough for mod). That's not how it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be literally just people who help other people at the game. That is what they are trying to change.

This is how the argument stands. "Helper rank is in the server to give people a reason to help others out of a pure authoritative stance, regardless of the theoretical definition of "Helper" on this server. Helper will always be considered some form of Authoritative Figure, however their rank is purely cosmetic, and we need this because people won't help others if they don't have a rank".

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware of the actual reason this rank is in the game, "You want to give honorable members a rank to distinguish themselves from the rest as a member of the community who has gone above and beyond the call of the wild". Which is basically 1 step towards being staff member. If people don't want to be a staff member, they just simply don't get a staff rank, it's as easy as that. Having a plethora of Helper ranked individuals just because "I don't want to be a staff member" basically devalues the entire staff team as a whole. You need more people willing to be Moderators, and not Helpers. When it comes down to it, you need an actual authoritative figure that can actually act on a situation and not dwell on it because they have no power.

Kishan wrote: They aren't hiring anyone, it's all unpaid for the most part. So I'm sure you can forgive them for not wanting to spend all of their time helping people on a private server and focussing more on real life responsibilities.

Helpers aren't members of the staff team anyway, their role is literally to help out other players which is why they have no obligations.

Haven't heard that blanket statement in a while, oh wait, yeah I did. I heard it for 4 years when people gave the excuse "I applied for a staff rank willfully knowing my time is limited". I don't care if you have college and you're trying to better yourself. Mike is running a business and if you can't give him time to assist in that, why did you apply. No offence to anyone who's a staff member and has duties outside of this realm, but you giving the excuse "Sorry I can't be on all the time, college". Basically is a cop out when you knew your time was completely limited.

Kavlar wrote: Haven't heard that blanket statement in a while, oh wait, yeah I did. I heard it for 4 years when people gave the excuse "I applied for a staff rank willfully knowing my time is limited". I don't care if you have college and you're trying to better yourself. Mike is running a business and if you can't give him time to assist in that, why did you apply. No offence to anyone who's a staff member and has duties outside of this realm, but you giving the excuse "Sorry I can't be on all the time, college". Basically is a cop out when you knew your time was completely limited.

Some people are better off on the staff team, than not being on it. Sometimes they can still provide insight and help out with the limited time that they have. It's a game. Mike and Rapsey know this too, they know people have lives outside of the game and don't expect people to play 24/7....

That is what needs to be changed about helper rank, when people start to view them as a step towards becoming a mod. Speaking from experience and hearing from other helpers, majority of helpers do not want to become mod. The rank should only be here to help people that are in need of information when they come to this server. Helpers are not a part of the staff team and shouldn't be seen as one, as they are only ranked to do one thing, Help People.

People become helpers to help the server grow and keep its community here and welcome new players. I think they do play a role in the increased amount of players that stay on here, since new players general go to helpers for information when they play this server for the first time. Usually mods dont have the time to answer basic questions about the server to new people, which is where the helper team comes in play. They can take that away from mods time so they can deal with their cases that are reported daily.

Helper are just here to help people, nothing more nothing less.