20 October updates: NPC pathfinding, item sets, bugfixes

[Patel]

Still don't understand why you're more special than any other player or why you were GIVEN these items in the first place.

Great staff member, often took blame/did the bitchwork tasks as a mod for Hamade who motivated him to do so with the promise of great reward (e.g. promotions). Ultimately passed him up for other people over and over for almost 3 years before Tom decided it wasn't worth it. He was in the same position as me, the only reason I'm advisor now is because the staff manager changed and I actually got admin (::post 77606 more or less conveys what people thought of us). I was contemplating resignation at the time as well, i just managed to stay around at the right time. So no one cared when Tomas got the items because it was near-unanimously agreed that he deserved something anyways, but since most of those people are gone it's easy to forget (and also to decide that it doesn't matter at all). In the end, it makes sense that you don't buy the other side of the argument (though I hope it's not as vague now). Pkhonor was/is game that a lot of older players grew up with, so there's fair sentimental value attached there as well. It is "just a game" in the end, but given the amount of time and effort many put into it (especially as kids), the game (and by extension, its items/ranks) is a part of who they were growing up. Dismissing it over yell with chiding remarks about "feeling special" is great if you're just looking to vent, but irrelevant to the argument.

This all illustrates the impasse here - indeed, it's a better community decision to reintroduce the items. However, this is done in spite of shafting a handful of players - the idea one can come out of this with full moral high-ground is wishful. There's no need to try and justify it, it's being done because it can be done and it'll be better for the many as opposed to the few. It's great from a utilitarian perspective; the tough part about making decisions like these is that someone's always gonna lose out. If not for people trying to convince him to be okay with it I'd have left it at my first comment. There's fair reason to not be okay with it and to raise equally fair objections.

[Slap a ho]

And has there been any talk of a potential compromise so both parties are happy? We can keep going back and forth of what’s right, who’s wrong, who’s special, etc., but it’s not getting anywhere.

Present a potential opportunity to make it fair for both sides - community & Tom.

What would Tom accept as fair payment for the reintroduction of Adam (g)?
Hint: The answer isn’t "to be the only one with the set again".

There should at least be some compromise that can be derived from that, isn’t there?

[Iron adam]

Let him pick one item that is irrelevant to PkHonor. Maybe some OSRS quest item. Some untradable cosmetic. Call it even?

[Thearlygamer]

Still don't understand why you're more special than any other player or why you were GIVEN these items in the first place.

Great staff member, often took blame/did the bitchwork tasks as a mod for Hamade who motivated him to do so with the promise of great reward (e.g. promotions). Ultimately passed him up for other people over and over for almost 3 years before Tom decided it wasn't worth it. He was in the same position as me, the only reason I'm advisor now is because the staff manager changed and I actually got admin (::post 77606 more or less conveys what people thought of us). I was contemplating resignation at the time as well, i just managed to stay around at the right time. So no one cared when Tomas got the items because it was near-unanimously agreed that he deserved something anyways, but since most of those people are gone it's easy to forget (and also to decide that it doesn't matter at all). In the end, it makes sense that you don't buy the other side of the argument (though I hope it's not as vague now). Pkhonor was/is game that a lot of older players grew up with, so there's fair sentimental value attached there as well. It is "just a game" in the end, but given the amount of time and effort many put into it (especially as kids), the game (and by extension, its items/ranks) is a part of who they were growing up. Dismissing it over yell with chiding remarks about "feeling special" is great if you're just looking to vent, but irrelevant to the argument.

This all illustrates the impasse here - indeed, it's a better community decision to reintroduce the items. However, this is done in spite of shafting a handful of players - the idea one can come out of this with full moral high-ground is wishful. There's no need to try and justify it, it's being done because it can be done and it'll be better for the many as opposed to the few. It's great from a utilitarian perspective; the tough part about making decisions like these is that someone's always gonna lose out. If not for people trying to convince him to be okay with it I'd have left it at my first comment. There's fair reason to not be okay with it and to raise equally fair objections.

So because you didn't stand up for yourself and let yourself be pushed around to do things no one else wanted to (I.E. "often took blame/did the bitchwork tasks as a mod for Hamade"), along with the argument 'this is the game I grew up with so I should be able to feel special over other players and they shouldn't be able to have the same experiences' justify's getting a unique item that's TRADABLE, for free, and has offers in the trills for it?

IMO players shouldn't get items for free worth trills, and they definitely shouldn't get 1 off items. Even Jagex realized this from the beginning of OSRS (not saying we have to be like them, just that it's an obvious flaw) and thus made things like party hats, and all other holiday items that are tradable 'worthless' in game.

Being an older player is unique and you should use that as a way to help and motivate other newer players (rather than shitting on them for not being able to get an item you have), but I don't think you saying that because you got a staff spot, because you did the dirty work, and because you stuck around that you in-turn DESERVE a unique item that's tradable.

[Thearlygamer]

Let him pick one item that is irrelevant to PkHonor. Maybe some OSRS quest item. Some untradable cosmetic. Call it even?

What about the players that already traded their one off items? Would they get compensated for the GP they put out, or will it just get turned into an untradable item?

[Iron adam]

Let him pick one item that is irrelevant to PkHonor. Maybe some OSRS quest item. Some untradable cosmetic. Call it even?

What about the players that already traded their one off items? Would they get compensated for the GP they put out, or will it just get turned into an untradable item?

These items should probably be handled on a case by case basis. Can't make a decision across the board.

[Slap a ho]

Let him pick one item that is irrelevant to PkHonor. Maybe some OSRS quest item. Some untradable cosmetic. Call it even?

Agreed. So long as the item is untradeable, I think it would be a fair compromise. The set that was never traded/refused offers being replaced with another one-off item that’s untradeable would equate to equal value of the one Adam (g) set.

Let him pick one item that is irrelevant to PkHonor. Maybe some OSRS quest item. Some untradable cosmetic. Call it even?

What about the players that already traded their one off items? Would they get compensated for the GP they put out, or will it just get turned into an untradable item?

These items should probably be handled on a case by case basis. Can't make a decision across the board.

Items that’ve already been traded have been compensated with gp. Grain and such. No need to provide a one-off as well.

[Patel]

And has there been any talk of a potential compromise so both parties are happy? We can keep going back and forth of what’s right, who’s wrong, who’s special, etc., but it’s not getting anywhere.

Idk about that, the point was to convince people that Tom's side of the argument even existed.

Let him pick one item that is irrelevant to PkHonor. Maybe some OSRS quest item. Some untradable cosmetic. Call it even?

This seems like the right track, and ultimately for parties involved to decide. They're definitely thinking about this, it doesn't usually take this long to respond if they're not.

So because you didn't stand up for yourself and let yourself be pushed around to do things no one else wanted to (I.E. "often took blame/did the bitchwork tasks as a mod for Hamade"), along with the argument 'this is the game I grew up with so I should be able to feel special over other players and they shouldn't be able to have the same experiences' justify's getting a unique item that's TRADABLE, for free, and has offers in the trills for it?

IMO players shouldn't get items for free worth trills, and they definitely shouldn't get 1 off items. Even Jagex realized this from the beginning of OSRS (not saying we have to be like them, just that it's an obvious flaw) and thus made things like party hats, and all other holiday items that are tradable 'worthless' in game.

Being an older player is unique and you should use that as a way to help and motivate other newer players (rather than shitting on them for not being able to get an item you have), but I don't think you saying that because you got a staff spot, because you did the dirty work, and because you stuck around that you in-turn DESERVE a unique item that's tradable.

Idk how much experience you've had with kids man, but when I say we were kids I mean we were kids. Dunno how many kids have that kind of resolve. Your ideology applies well to adults and I even agree with it. No one should do good for the purpose of receiving reward (that's literally the quote in my signature, albeit in Sanskrit), but I'm not trying to impose my values on someone else here. I'm trying to expose the values that support each argument. The answer is compromise.

Edit: Not to mention that he didn't become mod for the reward. Hamade goaded him into tasks with the promise of reward; this is responsive action on Tomas's part, not intrinsically-motivated action. I would even argue that he had the backbone to do what no one else wanted to, even if the promise of promotion catalyzed his actions.

[Ruler]

@thelategamer, it must so hard to take the position that somebody else didn't deserve to get an item, and that for the sake of the community it is justified to take away the item. Wondering how it would be if you were that person, it' always easy to make decisions that are only negative for someone else.

If it was justified that he got the items is definitely debatable, but he did receive them. Removing them without any compensation is not very nice.

Here's what I think (and what we have been trying to do as much as possible):
When an item was purchased through a custom donation, we are willing to purchase the item for the current street value (or slightly below it) of said item. It's what we had done with the 2 bags of grain that were still in the economy a while ago.
When an item was available in a store at some point (such as the cape of legends and wooden shield), we will not purchase any of the items unless there are only a handful left in the game. The same goes for the daconia rock and some other similar items (some of which were made untradeable a couple of years ago).

It also seems against your 'policy', although it leaves room for interpretation. There was only one ingame, you could have easily bought it from tomas. I don't see why there would be a difference in buying an item, or receiving it like Tomas did. The items were worth trills and were removed without any compensation.

[Iron adam]

@thelategamer, it must so hard to take the position that somebody else didn't deserve to get an item, and that for the sake of the community it is justified to take away the item. Wondering how it would be if you were that person, it' always easy to make decisions that are only negative for someone else.

If it was justified that he got the items is definitely debatable, but he did receive them. Removing them without any compensation is not very nice.

Not exactly the same scenario, but I had about 100 barrows gloves that I could have sold before they were put in the shop for cheap. I deliberately pushed to tank the price because it would be better for the server overall. I am constantly submitting new prices on items where I lose a shit load of money, but I do it anyways because I know the majority will benefit. Lost about 10b on dragon bones, 10b on cannonballs, some lesser amounts on other things. I also have a white apron that I bought for 200B, I would be fine with introducing a spawn somewhere, even though I would lose that money.

Not saying that any of this is of the same magnitude. Frankly, I have no idea about Tom's situation, because I wan't around at the time. This is just the attitude that I take towards the game now as a longtime player.